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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Saxguy1000 View Post
Speaking of copyright, if anyone does this, give me credit because I think it's a good idea. I was talking to an SH-60 Seahawk pilot a couple weeks ago and asked him what the "elevator" truly does for the helicopter. (Warning: This is a long story.)

He started by correcting me and calling it a vertical stabilizer (duhhh... I couldn't believe I made that mistake.) He went on to say that it helps to maintain the level flight and hovering. Even though I have been inside them, I didn't know if speed dictated the level of the stab, i.e., you always see it in "down" position when they are hovering or slow take off. At least, that's where I always get to see them.

Something he said to that has had me thinking ever since. He told me that the vertical stabilizer is there to "free up" some of the maneuvering for other more complicated movement. Relating to my models for the whole conversation, I thought about the "ballooning" problem we have with the FP heli. In other words, when we get too much fast forward flight (fff), we always shoot upward. If you use a fixed stabilizer, it helps a bit until you fly into the breeze where it can tend to work against you (I assume--haven't proven it). I say this because all the stabs on bigger helis (except scale fuses) are cut out. Meaning, they don't use the surface control as much as have it there for crash protection.
Here is part of a post about BlackHawk stabilators by Nick Lappos, former chief testpilot for Sikorsky, from the pprune.org forum:

"Here is a functional way to look at the stab's duties (I flew the first flight of the stabilator on the Hawk, back in about 1975):

1) It keeps the nose down when slowing at low speeds - by aligning with the downwash. This lets the pilot see more on approach, allows a greater aft CG, and keeps the main rotor shaft bending loads down. It is the main reason why the stabilator moves at all.

2) It makes the nose rise up a bit when speed is increased, thus requiring the pilot to push a little forward stick. this gives an utterly useless, but quite measurable characteristic known as "longitudinal static stick stability" which is easy to measure, and so becomes a required characteristic.

3) It keeps the nose attitude level when the ball is pushed out either left or right - the lateral accelerometers (electronic trim balls) feed the stabilator info so it moves up or down to quell the natural tendency for the nose to pop up in left pedal/right sideslip maneuvers, or pop down in right pedal/left sideslip events. This is a natural single rotor helicopter tendency.

4) It makes the nose drop in steep banked turns in either direction, so that the pilot must pull the stick back to keep trimmed in the turn. This creates a positive maneuvering stability, where the back stick builds the load factor, making it easier to trim to a given G level.

The stabilator has its own controller boxes (the stabilator amplifiers) and they compare their outputs to shut it down if they disagree."
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 03:33 PM
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Virginia Beach
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That's really great info. So, they call it a "stabilator". #4 is the most surprising effect, but #1 is rather revealing, too. So, a cp heli slows and stays level by using the stab. I guess this would be because they would want to come in real fast, but need to let off troops immediately. If it still had to slow, then level off, it would be an opportune time to shoot them down. Interesting. This would also explain why I've seen one foreign military helicopter take off with the nose down 45 degrees in acceleration. You don't see our U.S. helicopters point down on take off so much. They do point down a bit, but not so much as other craft.
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 05:20 PM
Epilepsy Awareness Month
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United States, MA, Malden
Joined Mar 2008
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Great compilation! Great music! The "Calvary" ruled the skies in Vietnam. I blame Sax and sso for this off topic post. Was doing some research on your posts above and ran into this

Huey helicopters in the Vietnam War with music from the era (5 min 22 sec)
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxguy1000 View Post
That's really great info. So, they call it a "stabilator". #4 is the most surprising effect, but #1 is rather revealing, too. So, a cp heli slows and stays level by using the stab. I guess this would be because they would want to come in real fast, but need to let off troops immediately. If it still had to slow, then level off, it would be an opportune time to shoot them down. Interesting. This would also explain why I've seen one foreign military helicopter take off with the nose down 45 degrees in acceleration. You don't see our U.S. helicopters point down on take off so much. They do point down a bit, but not so much as other craft.
How far the nose points down depends on how fast you want to accelerate. It also depends on how far the helo can pitch forward and have the pilot still see the horizon (window configuration). If you look at some helicopters the rotor mast is not vertical. This supplies some forward thrust when the helo body is level (see S-76).

There is also some information that the reason the SH-60 has a moving stab is that the tail configuration is much lower than other helicopters. The tail configuration is a requirement for transporting the SH-60 on board other aircraft. In most other helicopters the horizontal stabilizer is located outside of the rotor wash (high up on the tail usually opposite the tail rotor).
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Old Feb 06, 2013, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Chap1012 View Post
Great compilation! Great music! The "Calvary" ruled the skies in Vietnam. I blame Sax and sso for this off topic post. Was doing some research on your posts above and ran into this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBd1hBT9vNc
America's 1st Team! Live the Legend!
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 04:36 AM
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United States, KY, Vine Grove
Joined Jun 2012
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Looking for feedback from fellow 120SR owners. And I hope I've posted to the right place after having browsed and performed searches on RCG and the net, but never quite found the (precise) feedback I was looking for. Sorry for the wordiness but felt it best to be detailed with my thoughts.

A month ago I arrived at finally having developed fairly solid hovering skills with my 120 in my small 10x10 TV-room. Can hover around with quite a bit of controlled authority and also continue working on precision and pattern-like hovering. Talk about being proud of myself...it only took me 4 months!! And been kinda stuck inside since arriving at my current skill-level, so I haven't been performing forward-flight other than making forward-adjustments relative to me hovering/zipping back and forth around the room.

A few days ago I applied the advanced-setup on the swash-plate - to the longer posts. Only when performing precision hovering do I feel any difference - takes more precision to spot-hover.

And for what it's worth, I have a JR 9503 and initially started with D/R=65% and Expo=20% and adjusted accordingly over time. Now flying with D/R=100% & Expo=0%. No other TX changes made. Question: Are there settings to further enhance the 120's capabilities for where I'm currently at? What about settings for learning forward-flight skills?

Also for what it's worth, my eventual goal is to hopefully get into flying a 450/500 size (?) heli for sport-flying. As corny as this sounds, it really wasn't until I had to replace a couple of parts that I really gained a real appreciation for this littler bird. It's been an awesome model in which to get into heli-flying and I doubt I will ever not have one or more 120's in my fleet.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 07:08 AM
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Virginia Beach
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vg33 View Post
Looking for feedback from fellow 120SR owners. And I hope I've posted to the right place after having browsed and performed searches on RCG and the net, but never quite found the (precise) feedback I was looking for. Sorry for the wordiness but felt it best to be detailed with my thoughts.

A month ago I arrived at finally having developed fairly solid hovering skills with my 120 in my small 10x10 TV-room. Can hover around with quite a bit of controlled authority and also continue working on precision and pattern-like hovering. Talk about being proud of myself...it only took me 4 months!! And been kinda stuck inside since arriving at my current skill-level, so I haven't been performing forward-flight other than making forward-adjustments relative to me hovering/zipping back and forth around the room.

A few days ago I applied the advanced-setup on the swash-plate - to the longer posts. Only when performing precision hovering do I feel any difference - takes more precision to spot-hover.

And for what it's worth, I have a JR 9503 and initially started with D/R=65% and Expo=20% and adjusted accordingly over time. Now flying with D/R=100% & Expo=0%. No other TX changes made. Question: Are there settings to further enhance the 120's capabilities for where I'm currently at? What about settings for learning forward-flight skills?

Also for what it's worth, my eventual goal is to hopefully get into flying a 450/500 size (?) heli for sport-flying. As corny as this sounds, it really wasn't until I had to replace a couple of parts that I really gained a real appreciation for this littler bird. It's been an awesome model in which to get into heli-flying and I doubt I will ever not have one or more 120's in my fleet.
Welcome to the thread, and, sure, it's the right place to be! Frankly, if you've mastered hovering with 100% D/R, you are halfway+ to total enjoyment of this fun little airframe. I just suggest that you take it out on a windless day, get it up high enough to not worry about minor problems, and fly it around. Take the cautious approach that you've already mastered. That is, begin by hovering at least 10 feet high, moving slowly forward out and back. Go from there to flying in a circle path clockwise and counterclockwise. Then try flying by ailerons left and right--just move a 20 feet to left and return by opposite stick. If you haven't crashed by then, you are 90% on your way to real fun!
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 01:19 PM
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United States, FL, North Port
Joined Jun 2012
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Right on SAX..Just saying Hi ..Have been off the threads for a while and just catching up with a post on my blog. I have been flying all along both indoors and out with my trusty 120SR and now with a new MSR Iam not going into my experiences with an MSRX which my son is now the proud owner of ...good tobe back and still alive and flying
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 01:52 PM
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Say, Bill, good to have you back! Hope you have been doing all right? I still say the mSR is a great indoor trainer for small rooms. Trainer for the SR 120, that is. I'm selling my mSRX because it's a better trainer for the mCPX--which a couple cars ran over--so, I don't need it!
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 06:13 PM
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I got in a replacement switch for my DX8 yesterday and immediately proceeded to change it out for the broken F-mode, a short 3-way switch. All I had to do is to desolder the old one and solder the new one in--too easy. Except, nothing EVER goes the easy way!!!! I went to turn on my Weller soldering iron and there was no on light followed by no heated tip. Went through the paces to make sure it wasn't the electrical outlet or the adapter, but sure enough, I've got to send it back on warranty. Fortunately, the soldering was not too hard with a larger soldering gun. A little sloppy, but done in a minute. I am back to flying!!!!

But, wait... the weather is blowing 10mph and is supposed to rain and blow 45mph tomorrow. Drat!!!!

This is what the old switch looks like:
Name: Short 3-way switch - DX8.jpg
Views: 52
Size: 163.8 KB
Description: Short 3-way switch - DX8 - F Mode

This is what the new one looked like:
Name: Replacement switch.jpg
Views: 44
Size: 300.7 KB
Description: Replacement switch - Futaba

It looks similar, but the Futaba switch is much smoother. It doesn't lock in as tight as the original, but I have a feeling it'll hold up a bit better next time I drop it on the floor.
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 08:54 PM
Heli's rule!
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Midvale, Utah, USA
Joined Mar 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vg33 View Post
A month ago I arrived at finally having developed fairly solid hovering skills with my 120 in my small 10x10 TV-room. Can hover around with quite a bit of controlled authority and also continue working on precision and pattern-like hovering. Talk about being proud of myself...it only took me 4 months!! And been kinda stuck inside since arriving at my current skill-level, so I haven't been performing forward-flight other than making forward-adjustments relative to me hovering/zipping back and forth around the room.

A few days ago I applied the advanced-setup on the swash-plate - to the longer posts. Only when performing precision hovering do I feel any difference - takes more precision to spot-hover.
Its not surprising you don't feel a big difference with the longer swash balls in a 10x10 room except when trying to spot hover. All the long vs short swash balls are is a mechanical dual rate, (short balls = low rates, long balls = high rate)

Its outdoors where you really notice it. I nearly returned my 120SR after the first flight, I was in my backyard with a light breeze, and the heli wouldn't do anything but float along with the breeze... I switched to the long balls and it had plenty of authority....

If you want to stay on the long balls but get back your precision hover capability, just lower the rates on elevator and aileron.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vg33 View Post
And for what it's worth, I have a JR 9503 and initially started with D/R=65% and Expo=20% and adjusted accordingly over time. Now flying with D/R=100% & Expo=0%. No other TX changes made. Question: Are there settings to further enhance the 120's capabilities for where I'm currently at? What about settings for learning forward-flight skills?

Also for what it's worth, my eventual goal is to hopefully get into flying a 450/500 size (?) heli for sport-flying. As corny as this sounds, it really wasn't until I had to replace a couple of parts that I really gained a real appreciation for this littler bird. It's been an awesome model in which to get into heli-flying and I doubt I will ever not have one or more 120's in my fleet.
I fly mine with -25% expo, which makes the heli more sensitive around center stick so it responds faster.

If you want to go to a bigger heli eventually, first thing to do is start using throttle hold NOW. when you crash, DONT drop the throttle stick to zero, leave it where it is and hit throttle hold. Dropping the throttle stick to zero on a 450 when you are crashing is just going to make the crash worse.....

second, once you get orientation down (you can hover with the heli;'s nose facing in any direction without having to think about which way to move the stick) get yourself a nano CPX and learn to fly without the self stabilizing flybar on your 120.....The great thing about the nano is its super durable, but flies just like a bigger heli... actually, a 450 will be easier to fly after mastering the nano, the nano is like a 450 on crack........
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 09:03 PM
Wind you go around in circles
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United States, FL, Middleburg
Joined Jan 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chap1012 View Post
Great compilation! Great music! The "Calvary" ruled the skies in Vietnam. I blame Sax and sso for this off topic post. Was doing some research on your posts above and ran into this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBd1hBT9vNc
Thanks for the vid. WS
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 09:41 PM
Epilepsy Awareness Month
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Thanks for the vid. WS
You'er welcome
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Old Feb 07, 2013, 11:22 PM
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United States, KY, Vine Grove
Joined Jun 2012
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Thanks Saxguy1000 & dacaur, will be taking both pieces of advice. Have to be honest, not long after trying to learn on the 120 I got really discouraged and put it away for many weeks. Just glad I got it back out and kept picking at it and know full well this hobby has so much to learn.
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Old Feb 08, 2013, 06:50 AM
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Originally Posted by vg33 View Post
Thanks Saxguy1000 & dacaur, will be taking both pieces of advice. Have to be honest, not long after trying to learn on the 120 I got really discouraged and put it away for many weeks. Just glad I got it back out and kept picking at it and know full well this hobby has so much to learn.
Flying helicopters is really doesn't necessarily give you instant gratification. Fortunately, devotion to the hobby, consistent practice and a willingness to put your wallet where your "potential" fun is--you will end up with a lot of fun. It really took me about a year of jacking around before I finally got the idea of how it works. But, I came into the game with almost no eye/hand coordination for this sort of thing. I am still not a quick reaction type, but after a lot of practice, I have learned to anticipate the tendencies. Once you know what to expect, I suppose all those with quick reflexes have it all!
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