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Old Jan 29, 2013, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by martin_ View Post
Very good thread and very helpfull to someone who want to buy that 4F200.

I bought one a mount ago and I only fly it in my backyard for around 10 - 12 pack, but today was time to go to the flying field to push the limit of that heli.

No one talk about the WK-2801pro TX range with that heli, I lost the TX signal of mine at around 500 feet and 20 - 25 feet in the air. The first time it appens I first thought it was the tail belt that had snapped because the heli started in a semi uncontrollable piro and crashed ''slowly'', miraculously it did no damage and tail belt was fine.....?? so I retried to fly away, and I lost the signal again, but this time I clearly see that I lost the signal and crashed hard, damage was a stripped servo and the usual main gear bolt snapped.

Next time I will do a test range to see how far I can go before I lost the signal, it's really disappointing............
Way old post!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:43 PM
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I just updated my build log section on the 3 blade, blade grip upgrade to fit Trex 250 blades without a spacer. It turns out to be a damn good durability upgrade for the rotor head too.


4F200 Blade grip upgrade! Fit standard 250 blades!


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Old Feb 01, 2013, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
I just updated my build log section on the 3 blade, blade grip upgrade to fit Trex 250 blades without a spacer. It turns out to be a damn good durability upgrade for the rotor head too.


4F200 Blade grip upgrade! Fit standard 250 blades!


Nice Work :-)
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:11 AM
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I recently assembled my first V200D03 rotor head. I was pleasantly surprised. The only thing i didn't like was the dampers. But i'm sure they will be fine. Just seemed kind of soft. The balls are much larger than the 4f200's. The ball links are more like the V450's linkage hardware. But it's about .5mm smaller ball than the v450 too. It seems like the rotor should be fairly durable in a crash. I still need to order a swash & ball linkages. Also some blades. The 4f200 blade roots seem almost 1mm shy of fitting properly. I think i will try the Master CP blades first. Though i currently do not believe i need to switch to 2 blades any longer. The heli is performing with just the 2702V, phenomenally, in comparison to the previous gyros. It should only get better from here with a BeastX or something else. At least as far as flight performance goes. Crash wise, i think the 2 blade head might be more practical. I might switch just for that reason. Though with the shorter ball linkages installed on the swash, and using the 4F180 blade grips. I have had a few crashes now, with only the plastic ball linkages breaking. The swash even separated on me once! Things are starting to shape up for this bird. Now if i can just keep the heli from falling apart mechanically!
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:24 AM
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MAN, this heli has became MAJOR fun again. It's flying better than ever before. I don't need 100% throttle, thats for sure. I updated my Build Log with some new stuff and made some edits. The main thing is, i went ahead and installed one of my 2702Vs in the 4f200. I sold the one i originally wanted to use. This one, for lack of a better word. "Could be iffy". But so far no "lock outs". The 2702V has much better tail end point and gyro setup. So it holds the tail much, much better than the 2618V. The 2618V was very ineffective at holding the tail for 3D on this bird. I had to use Trex 42mm tail blades, which are slightly wider as well as longer than the stock or smaller Trex 250 tail blades. The extra width on the tail blades provides some extra "bite", giving additional tail authority. Right now, the heli is flying almost perfectly. It's hard to complain! Except after about 10-12 flights the 2702, or other vibrational issues (unbalanced blade) caused my stock tail servo to burn out. I then replaced it with a Savox 0257 MG. This adds some weight in the back, but i actually need the weight because i plan on using larger packs later on. I did not receive any damage in the tail servo failure. I have since fixed all the vibe issues. I had to balance the main rotors and go over a few things. But this heli is ready to rip tomorrow, weather permitting.


Here are two videos from today... TOTALLY RIPPING 3D. Don't be too jealous! This took some heartache, money and pain to get to this point. Not to mention skipping some lunches.

Custom 4f200 - 80% throt. You'll wish your's flew like this! (3 min 53 sec)


Custom 4F200 - 75% Throt & Screaming Still (4 min 10 sec)




Also, here is a video i made to demo just how durable these MKS servos have been... Not only are they a 1000% increase on durability when the heli is powered down. They move so nice and smooth, with very little friction. But i have also crashed them a hand full of times and there is no noticeable play, grind or jitter to the servos. They are basically still like new. I'm very impressed and HIGHLY recommend these servos.

MKS DS470 = Major durability & performance upgrade for custom 4f200 (8 min 39 sec)
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:34 AM
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4F200C - Windy 3D - Savox tail, MKS cyclic, CC 35 ESC. (3 min 53 sec)
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 06:34 PM
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My servo from readyheli finally came, so I got my 4f200 in the air today. I set it up with s3154 servos, stock tail servo, and a 2702v-D. I did a couple flights with just the cc25 esc then I wanted to do a logging flight, so I strapped the ice lite 50 on there and here is the result.
High res:
http://i.imgur.com/prLJxoc.jpg

I will do a couple more because I found out that 4100 is too fast to govern for my aeolian 4800kv (4700kv actual) motor. It was pretty much just pegged out on 100% the whole time, although I was thrashing it around pretty good. It pulled 7.8a average with a 16.6a peak. This is on 3s with the stock 17t pinion. Pack is a Nano-tech 1000mah 45c which weighs 93.2g

The two flights before this were on a mystery 4800kv (5080kv measured). I may switch back to this motor because it seemed to have quite a bit more power. Then again it could just be the extra 60g in the form of the ice lite 50.

I am looking for other blades because my brand new stock set has 1mm variation in chord width. I got the 4f180 grips already (thanks for the guide IH). I would just get the align plastics, but they are heavier than stock. Steath 205's also look okay, I may just get those because they're only $8.99 a set.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint723 View Post
My servo from readyheli finally came, so I got my 4f200 in the air today. I set it up with s3154 servos, stock tail servo, and a 2702v-D. I did a couple flights with just the cc25 esc then I wanted to do a logging flight, so I strapped the ice lite 50 on there and here is the result.
High res:
http://i.imgur.com/prLJxoc.jpg

I will do a couple more because I found out that 4100 is too fast to govern for my aeolian 4800kv (4700kv actual) motor. It was pretty much just pegged out on 100% the whole time, although I was thrashing it around pretty good. It pulled 7.8a average with a 16.6a peak. This is on 3s with the stock 17t pinion. Pack is a Nano-tech 1000mah 45c which weighs 93.2g

The two flights before this were on a mystery 4800kv (5080kv measured). I may switch back to this motor because it seemed to have quite a bit more power. Then again it could just be the extra 60g in the form of the ice lite 50.

I am looking for other blades because my brand new stock set has 1mm variation in chord width. I got the 4f180 grips already (thanks for the guide IH). I would just get the align plastics, but they are heavier than stock. Steath 205's also look okay, I may just get those because they're only $8.99 a set.
I prefer the plastic blades because they add damper to the rotor. The 250 blades might weigh more (i have not weighed them) but they perform better because they have a narrower chord. The disc loading might be higher, but the surface drag and resistance when pitching is much less. They also move less air, so with higher head speeds they probably run nicer. I know they bogged less on the 2S setup compared to the stock blades. Having a heavier rotor is usually more stable anyway. If the motor can handle the disc loading. Another blade i have used in the past is the Walkera SD5 blades. They are expensive for what they are. They are plastic, similar to the V120/master cp composition. They are fairly light if i remember correctly. They are pretty short too. The chord is even more narrow than the Trex blades. I was going to use them when i was still using 2S setup. To try and maintain a better head speed in 3D. I think the Walkera SD3 blades are identical to the 4f200/4f200LM blades, not sure. But with this new motor, i am confident that i will be able to handle even the ultra wide chord on the stock 4f200 blades, without bogging. But again, i prefer to have some damper on the rotor so i don't want CF blades. Last i checked my Trex blades weighed about 10.6g each (balanced with tape on each blade) So in reality, i add additional weight to the rotor, mostly for looks. But it also gives me a place to add tape for balancing. It's still fine for me & my motor. I can't actually clock and check the KV but it's listed at 4200kv.

As far as your current motor. I don't know. Sounds over rated or something. If your at 4700kv and 4100 rpm is too fast to govern, something is wrong. Because the MAX i can govern and maintain safe headroom with my 4200kv motor (according to castle link) is 4400 rpm. Without governor i'm running almost 4900 rpm at the beginning of the flight. Which means either my motor is under rated, or your motor is over rated. Something is going on here. But i think early in this thread either DKFuji or alwayscrash used that Mystery motor. I'm pretty sure it worked out for them. But your data log shows your max RPM at 4300. I suppose that was with the governor? You should be able to scream above 5000 rpm with 4700kv. We are both using the stock 17T pinion too. So something is off. I still can't get the motor to start up very well in helicopter mode. So i am not using governor mode yet. I will play with it more later, i'm sure. After all. The only reason i spent $80 on a CC 35 was to get a decent governor. So i expect to be able to use it at some point. Even if it has to go in another heli.

As far as the Stealth and Align CF 205mm blades. They might come very close to hitting the tail rotor. If you use 42mm tail blades, it could be a real issue. Otherwise, the stock or 37mm tail blades should be fine. Still a very close shave though.


On a side note, i HAD to use the 42mm tail blades just to maintain a decent tail hold and authority with the 2618. The 2702V is working MUCH nicer at holding the tail. Though the stock tail servo locked up and stopped functioning on about my 12th flight with the 2702V. Since replacing the tail servo with a 0257MG i also installed (not sure) either the 37mm or 39mm tail blades. The 2702V is holding the tail just fine with them too. Thankfully. I also don't need to add mechanical heading lock any longer. I don't know why, but with the 2618V the tail would kick out if i didn't add some pitch to the right to hold the tail mechanically. Even with the gyro % at 100. So the 2702V is working pretty well, for now. in the last 4 days i have ran at least 9-12 packs a day though the 4f200. The worst issue i have had is the tail wagging. Tonight I installed a rubber damper on the slider's ball and even rebuilt the tail rotor, hoping to eliminate slop. Nothing is working. The tail likes to wag. So i might end up doing a V200D03 tail conversion eventually if i can't get this tail slop cleaned up. It could be partly because of the used 0257mg servo. But it's really annoying that the heli is flying so great now, except for that tail wagging.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
I prefer the plastic blades because they add damper to the rotor. The 250 blades might weigh more (i have not weighed them) but they perform better because they have a narrower chord. The disc loading might be higher, but the surface drag and resistance when pitching is much less. They also move less air, so with higher head speeds they probably run nicer. I know they bogged less on the 2S setup compared to the stock blades. Having a heavier rotor is usually more stable anyway. If the motor can handle the disc loading. Another blade i have used in the past is the Walkera SD5 blades. They are expensive for what they are. They are plastic, similar to the V120/master cp composition. They are fairly light if i remember correctly. They are pretty short too. The chord is even more narrow than the Trex blades. I was going to use them when i was still using 2S setup. To try and maintain a better head speed in 3D. I think the Walkera SD3 blades are identical to the 4f200/4f200LM blades, not sure. But with this new motor, i am confident that i will be able to handle even the ultra wide chord on the stock 4f200 blades, without bogging. But again, i prefer to have some damper on the rotor so i don't want CF blades. Last i checked my Trex blades weighed about 10.6g each (balanced with tape on each blade) So in reality, i add additional weight to the rotor, mostly for looks. But it also gives me a place to add tape for balancing. It's still fine for me & my motor. I can't actually clock and check the KV but it's listed at 4200kv.

As far as your current motor. I don't know. Sounds over rated or something. If your at 4700kv and 4100 rpm is too fast to govern, something is wrong. Because the MAX i can govern and maintain safe headroom with my 4200kv motor (according to castle link) is 4400 rpm. Without governor i'm running almost 4900 rpm at the beginning of the flight. Which means either my motor is under rated, or your motor is over rated. Something is going on here. But i think early in this thread either DKFuji or alwayscrash used that Mystery motor. I'm pretty sure it worked out for them. But your data log shows your max RPM at 4300. I suppose that was with the governor? You should be able to scream above 5000 rpm with 4700kv. We are both using the stock 17T pinion too. So something is off.

As far as the Stealth and Align CF 205mm blades. They might come very close to hitting the tail rotor. If you use 42mm tail blades, it could be a real issue. Otherwise, the stock or 37mm tail blades should be fine. Still a very close shave though.

If i put 4200kv motor and 17t-172t gear ratio with 6 poles in to castle link, it says I could govern about 4000 max @ 96% output. So I don't know where you are getting the 4400 number. Either I am wrong about the main gear having 172 teeth or something else is going on.

Edit: I just counted the main gear and got 171. I don't feel like counting again so i'll assume it's either 171 or 172. Either way does not make much difference in the castle link calculation.

So you have the 200mm plastic aligns? Because I thought the tapered plastics were 205mm. I did check the clearance with the tail blades (i am using stock), I think with stiff blades, 205's won't be a problem.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by flint723 View Post
If i put 4200kv motor and 17t-172t gear ratio with 6 poles in to castle link, it says I could govern about 4000 max @ 96% output. So I don't know where you are getting the 4400 number. Either I am wrong about the main gear having 172 teeth or something else is going on.

Edit: I just counted the main gear and got 171. I don't feel like counting again so i'll assume it's either 171 or 172. Either way does not make much difference in the castle link calculation.

So you have the 200mm plastic aligns? Because I thought the tapered plastics were 205mm. I did check the clearance with the tail blades (i am using stock), I think with stiff blades, 205's won't be a problem.
You know what, i had issues with castle link giving me different readings. Were you using RPM set mode? I'm pretty sure if i used regular governor mode i could plug the numbers 4000, 4200 and 4400 rpm into the boxes in castle link. 4400 RPM gave a warning i think about minimal head room. But it was still usable. I had thought you only need about 17% headroom when governed. 16% of 4900 rpm is 4116. So you might be about in the right ball park actually. I don't know much about this ESC and how it works yet. Especially with Governor mode. After spooling up suddenly the way it did i have been running in airplane mode and haven't had an issue. But i was planning on governing at about 4200 rpm and hoping that works out. Otherwise, i might need to gear up again. Because i really want to govern at 4500 rpm. I'm fairly sure this motor can handle much more load and payload on board. So i don't think your CC ice effected it too much. I put a big 2200 mAh pack on the nose and flew mine around just fine. Other than the obvious CG issue, the heli hardly noticed the extra weight. It made me start thinking about a landing skid mounted battery tray


Yes i use the 200mm plastic aligns. I don't think they are tapered. The Align 205 CF blades definitely are. The Stealth blade too i think. I don't know if the 205mm plastic ones are or not.

This is a size comparison of the Trex 200mm blade over a stock 4f200 blade.

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Old Feb 04, 2013, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
You know what, i had issues with castle link giving me different readings. Were you using RPM set mode? I'm pretty sure if i used regular governor mode i could plug the numbers 4000, 4200 and 4400 rpm into the boxes in castle link. 4400 RPM gave a warning i think about minimal head room. But it was still usable. I had thought you only need about 17% headroom when governed. 16% of 4900 rpm is 4116. So you might be about in the right ball park actually. I don't know much about this ESC and how it works yet. Especially with Governor mode. After spooling up suddenly the way it did i have been running in airplane mode and haven't had an issue. But i was planning on governing at about 4200 rpm and hoping that works out. Otherwise, i might need to gear up again. Because i really want to govern at 4500 rpm. I'm fairly sure this motor can handle much more load and payload on board. So i don't think your CC ice effected it too much. I put a big 2200 mAh pack on the nose and flew mine around just fine. Other than the obvious CG issue, the heli hardly noticed the extra weight. It made me start thinking about a landing skid mounted battery tray

I tried it both in set rpm and in gov high. It makes no difference, I can't get it to say anything more than 4000rpm w/ minimal overhead (4200kv motor). But I have noticed that the cc gov calculator doesn't work that great on these small helis. On my 450 and 500, the calc has always been really close if I put in 3.75v/cell instead of 3.7 for the gov calc. And it helps to have an accurate kv (which I can measure by running up the motor to 100% with no load at a couple different voltages, then look at the data log and take the rpm/volts). The only motor I've checked that was pretty much dead on was my Kontronik Kora 25 that I put in my Protos. It's rated 420kv, and I measured like 420.6kv.

I should mention that with the Mystery 4800(5080kv), the cc 25 would get the motor started eventually, but with this aeolian 4800(4700kv), it won't start. I have to give it a little spin to get it going and then it's fine. I really want to put the mystery back in and log how it performs, but I suppose I should wait til my stealth blades (I ordered them) get here and try them with this motor first. Because if it didn't bog, I would be happy with 4000 or 4100 rpm.
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Old Feb 04, 2013, 11:34 PM
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Originally Posted by flint723 View Post
I tried it both in set rpm and in gov high. It makes no difference, I can't get it to say anything more than 4000rpm w/ minimal overhead (4200kv motor). But I have noticed that the cc gov calculator doesn't work that great on these small helis. On my 450 and 500, the calc has always been really close if I put in 3.75v/cell instead of 3.7 for the gov calc. And it helps to have an accurate kv (which I can measure by running up the motor to 100% with no load at a couple different voltages, then look at the data log and take the rpm/volts). The only motor I've checked that was pretty much dead on was my Kontronik Kora 25 that I put in my Protos. It's rated 420kv, and I measured like 420.6kv.

I should mention that with the Mystery 4800(5080kv), the cc 25 would get the motor started eventually, but with this aeolian 4800(4700kv), it won't start. I have to give it a little spin to get it going and then it's fine. I really want to put the mystery back in and log how it performs, but I suppose I should wait til my stealth blades (I ordered them) get here and try them with this motor first. Because if it didn't bog, I would be happy with 4000 or 4100 rpm.
Yeah, now that you mention it, the calculator was giving me screwy numbers. I think i ended up raising the voltage/cell number or something. Maybe thats why i was getting higher numbers.

Honestly i've been enjoying the high head speeds. It doesn't bog and the heli maneuvers very well, even in high winds. But the damn tail won't stop wagging. I don't know what else to do. The only slop in the tail is a tiny bit in the tail's pitch change linkages, and of course the tiny bit that the pitch change slider can move on the shaft with those linkages. I cant really do anything about it at this point. It's the only thing i can think of causing this wagging issue. I'll have to order a new tail set for the pitch change etc. Maybe replacing them will tighten up the tail rotor. Otherwise i'll have no choice but to go to the 2 blade v200 tail.
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 09:09 AM
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I think i may have isolated the source of my tail wag. I've never really had it this badly. I found some pitch change linkages in my parts from when i changed out the slider once previously. I just used the old original pitch linkages back then, so i had the new ones in my box. I took the old ones off, being aluminum, i figured they may have worn out a little around the bushings. While replacing the first one... I felt like an idiot.... Wiggling the blade grip around, it had some serious slop on it's mounting. All 3 blade grips did. So i guess my blade grip bearings are shot! I don't know if they are replaceable. The 4f200 bearing kit does not seem to have 3 small bearings for these grips. So, i'm stuck in limbo till i get paid and can afford to order some new grips for the tail. I haven't taken them off yet to check them. I just put it all down after i realized there was nothing i could do. The tail wag is awful rightn now, so i'm not going to fly it till i get new parts. Then, moving forward. I may work with getting a new gyro before i attempt more governor mode stuff. I kind of like how the airplane mode fires up though. But then again, with parts getting harder and harder to get for this heli. I might just end up sticking with the 2702V and shelfing this bird, just because it's my first CP, i really can't part with it and it's pretty expensive to fix too.
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 01:43 PM
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Just repaired my 4f today, had a little crash a few day ago, frame and landing skids were broken, everything else was fine, even head and servos (Futaba 3114)
Now I only need a few nicer days to try my new setup.
4200KV motor with 19t pinion gives me 4800rpm(read out from my esc programm card) with a full battery, so even later in flight headspeed should not go lower than 4000rpm.
While mounting the pinion I broke the shaft of the motor (turnigy motor has a 3mm shaft that reduces to 2.2mm), now I have installed a new 3mm shaft. Was hard to find a matching pinion with m0,3 and a 3mm shaft.
Tailblades are now the taler ones from the 4f200lm, hope that gives a little bit more authority for the tail.
Will try a different rx later, when weather is getting better
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Old Feb 05, 2013, 02:06 PM
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Here is a couple more logs from today. I did 4000 rpm and turned gov gain way down so the graph looks much cleaner. I also seemed to get less bogging today, probably because the battery didn't get chilled as much. It's 52F (heat wave I know) instead of 25 like it was yesterday. Now I just need my new blades.

http://i.imgur.com/XSVKP7A.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/4UWnzcm.jpg
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