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Old Oct 08, 2012, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
That is looking nice. I just don't like Align or basically any of the 450 designs. They all seem problematic. You better read up on pinning your tail boom so it does not fly off! I'm sure a lot of these "issues" are addressable and everything.
Both the Align and Gaui are good quality brands. Of course each is a different design and thus each design's problems are different. I don't believe there is a mass produced heli that has been out there for at least a year and is free from problems. Correct me if I am wrong. It does take a while for the market to generate feedback on a brand new product and then for that feeback to be aggregated into a generally accepted opinion. Honestly, between the two, I pick the one that won't be obsoleted for at least 5-10 years and has the most parts available in the local area. I wouldn't care if its an Align or a Gaui. Align is the dominant brand here in the MN twin cities area. I love how Align continually improves its 450 pro models - they are on the third version on many of their parts. I also love how the Align models evolve (change) at a moderate rate. And then there are some that say Align does not adopt new ideas/designs fast enough.

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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
I simply don't like the DFC head on anything bigger than the 250. It looks too costly to repair and has been reportedly problematic on their bigger heli. So i'll wait till they get that under control. I'd rather stick with the tried and true FBL head. But i'm sure the 450 DFC is safer, more reliable and less likely to "teeter" than the bigger helicopters. I just don't trust them still till they get the "teetering" issue solved. Perhaps they have already?
Yes I was aware of this problem before I bought the DFC head and its problems on the 600/700 size helis. The DFC head is fine for the 450 and 250 size helis. The DFC head upgrade kit I got is actually cheaper than the full FBL head. Its working. Crash reports are saying its the "Pro Ball Links" that are breaking off the most. On occasion a blade grip will bend, a feathering shaft will bend and the rotor grip arm bolt. It really depends on the crash which I'll find out soon for sure. I can go more into detail with regards to how some are not happy with some specific bolts not being sold separately. But this is mostly the 4F200 thread.

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DO NOT FLY YOUR 4F200 ANYMORE!!! I PROMISE YOU THE 2612V WILL COST YOU MORE MONEY THAN IT'S WORTH
Hah , I knew you would write this. I also thought about it. In the beginning, I actually crashed 5 times due to the tipping on lift off (the 2612 famous tipping act). But then I reflected on the fact that I am now a more experienced rc heli pilot and maybe it won't be all that bad. I am going to give it shot.... I don't care. Actually I do a bit. I plan to make sure there is at least 41% throttle before lift off (or whatever amount of is needed to engage the 3-axis gyros). Don't get me wrong... the 2612 is not for beginners. Everyone is recommending to upgrade to the 2618 receiver. Which is a good recommendation. However, the only receiver that I would consider buying for the 4F200 again is.... another AR7200BX. I'd rather invest $65 (+shipping) towards the 7200 rather than the 2618.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
Very nice! How's the geometry without the DFC swash?
Thanks for the kind comment. As far as I know and can tell, the regular FBL swash plate and the DFC swash plate have the same geometry. I'll eventually get the DCF swashplate. The DFC swash gives you this: "Designed specifically for DFC rotorhead system, improving DFC connecting rod’s strength and minimizing linkage detachment during extreme flight maneuvers."

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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
I like the blue adonized DFC head.
The LHS was out of stock on the black ones.

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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
How does she fly so far? Compared to the 4F200? My 250 DFC is just worlds different from the V200's handling but I've never flown a 450 DFC.
So far I like how it flies. As far as predictability and reaction to stick movements - she flies the same as the 4F200. I am sure this is attributed to the same 7200 receiver being used. I am currently running on default beastx flight parameters and the transmitter is programmed with default dual rates, expo and 100% travel. The only thin I changed in the TX (beside channel reverse settings) is the normal pitch curve. All trim pots are at their default factory position - 12 o'clock center. However, the 450 flies different and I like it. It just has more momentum and obviously more lifting power. It's not fare to compare the two.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Thanks for the kind comment. As far as I know and can tell, the regular FBL swash plate and the DFC swash plate have the same geometry. I'll eventually get the DCF swashplate. The DFC head gives you this: "Designed specifically for DFC rotorhead system, improving DFC connecting rod’s strength and minimizing linkage detachment during extreme flight maneuvers."
I was asking because on the 250 the DFC swash gives more cyclic pitch as well as better servo-swash geometry. Then again I doubt that you're short on pitch at all

Did you run piro comp on your 4F200 with the BX receiver? The 3GX was my first rx with piro comp and it's almost too easy The 250 will do slow piros practically hands off, it makes me look better than I am
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Both the Align and Gaui are good quality brands. Of course each is a different design and thus each design's problems are different. I don't believe there is a mass produced heli that has been out there for at least a year and is free from problems. Correct me if I am wrong. It does take a while for the market to generate feedback on a brand new product and then for that feeback to be aggregated into a generally accepted opinion. Honestly, between the two, I pick the one that won't be obsoleted for at least 5-10 years and has the most parts available in the local area. I wouldn't care if its an Align or a Gaui. Align is the dominant brand here in the MN twin cities area. I love how Align continually improves its 450 pro models - they are on the third version on many of their parts. I also love how the Align models evolve (change) at a moderate rate. And then there are some that say Align does not adopt new ideas/designs fast enough.
I agree completely! Align is great and much better than WK. If anyone thinks they don't do revisions, they should deal with WK for a little while or instead get "silent" revisions on spare parts because people were not crashing enough. It's a whole new ball game with anyone but WK. They will get you in the air. But quality flight is not their strong suit. I suppose i was just trying to say, i'm waiting till they've done a few revisions on the DFC and everything is rock solid. Sounds like it already is, pretty much.

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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Yes I was aware of this problem before I bought the DFC head and its problems on the 600/700 size helis. The DFC head is fine for the 450 and 250 size helis. The DFC head upgrade kit I got is actually cheaper than the full FBL head. Its working. Crash reports are saying its the "Pro Ball Links" that are breaking off the most. On occasion a blade grip will bend, a feathering shaft will bend and the rotor grip arm bolt. It really depends on the crash which I'll find out soon for sure. I can go more into detail with regards to how some are not happy with some specific bolts not being sold separately. But this is mostly the 4F200 thread.
Nice to know. I might venture into another 450 later. But for now i'm sickened by this one. I think a 550 is going to be a lot more stable, more powerful and over all i'll just be happier knowing it's not a WK. If i have to get a new heli, i don't want it to be another 450.

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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Hah , I knew you would write this. I also thought about it. In the beginning, I actually crashed 5 times due to the tipping on lift off (the 2612 famous tipping act). But then I reflected on the fact that I am now a more experienced rc heli pilot and maybe it won't be all that bad. I am going to give it shot.... I don't care. Actually I do a bit. I plan to make sure there is at least 41% throttle before lift off (or whatever amount of is needed to engage the 3-axis gyros). Don't get me wrong... the 2612 is not for beginners. Everyone is recommending to upgrade to the 2618 receiver. Which is a good recommendation. However, the only receiver that I would consider buying for the 4F200 again is.... another AR7200BX. I'd rather invest $65 (+shipping) towards the 7200 rather than the 2618.

If you insist. But you better take it real slow and watch your 3D!!! Pitch changes will not hold your tail like your used to with the BX. It's not just the 40% throttle gyro. The gyro programming is not as good as the newer versions of RX. Particularly the HH gyro. I thought the same thing as you and crashed and ruined a brand new set of CF blades because of it. The tail wouldn't hold the heli spun out while inverting and i hit the dirt. Otherwise i probably could have flown a whole pack in normal flight. But it just didn't feel as solid and stable as with the 2618. So i had to buy a new 2618 for that too. It's really just not worth it. But i'm going to say i told you so now, so i don't have to later

I totally agree on the 7200BX. I'm done with WK. If i had a DX6 i would do that too. Of course i'm considering selling the whole heli though.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Ooh man. Good eye. I didn't even realize that he was using the FBL swash. I suppose maybe they are basically the same?
The swash links attach to the swash plate in the same locations (from what I can see on web images). The difference with the DFC head is the two links between the swash and head are oriented differently to prevent the ball links from popping out during extreme maneuvers. The more and more I think about it - they'll pop off either way. Not sure though.

The DFC head upgrade kit ($49.99) comes with everything except the feather shaft (and its hardware) and the swash plate. The DFC head is compatible with the fly-barred swash plate or the FBL swash plate. The DFC head does come with some very firm feathering shaft bushings; almost as if they are made of delrin plastic.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
Did you run piro comp on your 4F200 with the BX receiver? The 3GX was my first rx with piro comp and it's almost too easy The 250 will do slow piros practically hands off, it makes me look better than I am
If your referring to rudder compensation, I haven't touched that setting in the beastx setting yet with the trex 450 pro. I did, however, have to set that for the 4F200 when using higher discharge batteries otherwise the tail would blow out on extreme maneuvers. Or maybe you are referring to what beastx calls a "Pirouette Optimization Direction" which is designed to ensure the swash plate stays level during a piro? Yes I had to set that since its part of the heli Setup Menu in the beastx. I love that feature!

I've only done one maiden hover on it so far and its flying wonderful without any tuning in the rx or tx. I am running on default beastx flight parameter settings. The DX6i tx is running a new model memory with only the channel reverse settings touched and a normal pitch curve. It almost seems as if the 7200 beastx factory defaults were designed specifically for the 450 (the blade 450X that is).
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
I was asking because on the 250 the DFC swash gives more cyclic pitch as well as better servo-swash geometry. Then again I doubt that you're short on pitch at all
Oh.... I'm sorry. I was way off.

I have more tuning to do... but for sure, the 450 has more lift. I followed a youtube instructional on setting up the max pitch travel in the beastx and the guy (in the video) set it to a max of 13 degrees both positive and negative. So I did that. I have no idea what pitch I should be running at on the trex 450 pro for my flying style.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
If you insist. But you better take it real slow and watch your 3D!!! Pitch changes will not hold your tail like your used to with the BX. It's not just the 40% throttle gyro. The gyro programming is not as good as the newer versions of RX. Particularly the HH gyro. I thought the same thing as you and crashed and ruined a brand new set of CF blades because of it. The tail wouldn't hold the heli spun out while inverting and i hit the dirt. Otherwise i probably could have flown a whole pack in normal flight. But it just didn't feel as solid and stable as with the 2618. So i had to buy a new 2618 for that too. It's really just not worth it. But i'm going to say i told you so now, so i don't have to later
I want to thank you in advance from saving me from my self. So when I do install the 2612 back onto the 4F200 and I do crash, in this case, I cannot blame the 2612 for the crash. I think that would be a correct presumption; would you not agree? I'll be sure to take it super slow.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
If your referring to rudder compensation, I haven't touched that setting in the beastx setting yet with the trex 450 pro. I did, however, have to set that for the 4F200 when using higher discharge batteries otherwise the tail would blow out on extreme maneuvers. Or maybe you are referring to what beastx calls a "Pirouette Optimization Direction" which is designed to ensure the swash plate stays level during a piro? Yes I had to set that since its part of the heli Setup Menu in the beastx. I love that feature!

I've only done one maiden hover on it so far and its flying wonderful without any tuning in the rx or tx. I am running on default beastx flight parameter settings. The DX6i tx is running a new model memory with only the channel reverse settings touched and a normal pitch curve. It almost seems as if the 7200 beastx factory defaults were designed specifically for the 450 (the blade 450X that is).
I'm willing to bet that is just BeastX being it's self. I'm fairly sure you can strap a turd to a propeller and BeastX will fly it smooth. It's when you start getting into 3d and FFF that you will start to see what you want to change as a preference.

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Oh.... I'm sorry. I was way off.

I have more tuning to do... but for sure, the 450 has more lift. I followed a youtube instructional on setting up the max pitch travel in the beastx and the guy (in the video) set it to a max of 13 degrees both positive and negative. So I did that. I have no idea what pitch I should be running at on the trex 450 pro for my flying style.
+/- 13 is a lot. Probably excellent for extreme 3D if your motor can handle the load. If you have the new Align motor it should be fine at that with a 12T pinion. I think, if i'm not mistaken. But if the controls feel fine like that, for now i think you should be good. If the heli feels okay to you, you should be fine there. Some people prefer to go in at around 11 degrees. But you know what your doing and how you want it to feel. I'm sure you'll be fine with +/- 13 degrees. I have a feeling setting the extensions on the 7200BX is going to be a lot more complex than on the 2702V. That thing is just easy to setup. I'm just hoping i manage to get the funds together some how for a heli worth strapping one in. Maybe i'll just put one on my v450. I'm sure that will solve the rest of the issues.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:48 AM
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On another note. What do you guys think my 4f200 is worth with the turbo ace 352, the old stock motor, a new spare servo set, about 5 batteries, 3 of which are brand new Turnigy packs with only 2 or 3 cycles on them and all the rest of my 4f200 parts, which is not all that much besides a used spare rotor head with CF blades. I probably have a belt or two and a new tail box & boom. Just a few odds and ends. I'm thinking about selling it, but i don't know if it would be worth it or not. It's basically in 100% rebuilt condition with the turbo ace motor and hobbywing 20A ESC.
Find out what the market price is for a used one with an upgraded 2618 and spare parts. I'll throw out a number: $265

I have no idea how to price these without seeing the market for them.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:27 AM
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Find out what the market price is for a used one with an upgraded 2618 and spare parts. I'll throw out a number: $265

I have no idea how to price these without seeing the market for them.
Yeah, i'm not sure there is a market price to go by anymore? I was thinking around $300 so we're not too far off. With a whole 2nd rotor head and blades and all the batteries and junk. I suppose 260 would be enough to get a new dx7. Maybe i will try and sell it after all.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 07:31 PM
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Hey razorblade, do you regret not getting the DX7? The only main feature i can think of that might be useful is the servo sync function. Otherwise i kind of want a extra channel in case i build a scale model with retracts. But otherwise. Has there been anything that made you wish you had spent the extra hundred dollars?
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:57 AM
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Hey razorblade, do you regret not getting the DX7? The only main feature i can think of that might be useful is the servo sync function. Otherwise i kind of want a extra channel in case i build a scale model with retracts. But otherwise. Has there been anything that made you wish you had spent the extra hundred dollars?
The DX6i has ServoSync. Read it here.
Quote:
All Spektrum transmitters with programmable mixing feature ServoSync™ an ingenious feature that automatically re-sequences the bits of data being transmitted based on the type of mixing you select.* If you select dual elevator mixing or 3-servo CCPM, ServoSync will see to it that those servos working together receive their pulses together. The result is more synchronized servo movement which translates into an undeniable, locked-in feel when you fly.

*ServoSync is only available on transmitters with built-in DSM2 technology
I'm okay with DX6i for now. But if I ever do decide to go bigger (500-700 class heli), that's when I will consider a DX7s for the following features:
  1. Built-In Telemetry
  2. Throttle-Activated Timer Setting
  3. Spektrum Data Interface (updates via an SD card)

The DX8 adds a three position idle up switch, thus it offers 3 pitch curves, 3 throttle curves, etc. That's Normal, Stunt1 and Stunt2. This is in addition to throttle hold. It would be nice to fly only in govenor mode at three different head speeds. The three curves are then selected via the idle up switch. Its a nice to have on the bigger models.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
The DX6i has ServoSync. Read it here.


I'm okay with DX6i for now. But if I ever do decide to go bigger (500-700 class heli), that's when I will consider a DX7s for the following features:
  1. Built-In Telemetry
  2. Throttle-Activated Timer Setting
  3. Spektrum Data Interface (updates via an SD card)

The DX8 adds a three position idle up switch, thus it offers 3 pitch curves, 3 throttle curves, etc. That's Normal, Stunt1 and Stunt2. This is in addition to throttle hold. It would be nice to fly only in govenor mode at three different head speeds. The three curves are then selected via the idle up switch. Its a nice to have on the bigger models.

Crap, that ends it then. DX8 is the only one i want then. I'll probably just get the DX6 for now then. Thats pretty crappy that the dx7 has a 3 position gyro/flaps switch but only 2 position idle up. It's going to suck getting used to the backwards switches to probably. I wonder if you can maybe cross mix the switches and program them for other functions? Doubtful, but then again, it's not WK were talking about. I suppose it won't be that big a deal. Telemetry is still nice, but i'm not interested until it does something like links directly to the ESC for full data logging telemetry. When that happens, then i'll care about telemetry. Until then, it's a gimmick in my eyes. Though the battery alarm and temperature sensors are nice. Unless the 7200BX has a built in battery sensor for use with the telemetry, i don't think i'm interested in installing telemetry modules and things like that. As it is i'll be selling/storing the micro beast and installing a 7200bx to eleminate wires and open up real estate on the heli.

It seems like the hand full of people i talked to flying the X5 are not using gov mode anyway. I recently turned gov mode off on my 450. It's not so different anymore. Something before had my throttle revving and doing weird changes with the pitch with the gov off. With it on the motor ran smooth and didn't rev. But i think all my problems were from a bunk RX. Seems like gov mode is still better, at least i prefer it. but the normal way is fine too when it works right
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