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Old Aug 06, 2012, 12:18 AM
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4F200 using Duratrax Onyx 2S 2000mah 25C Lipo

On Saturday, I finally got two flights in with the Duratrax Onyx 2S 7.4V 2000mah 25C Soft Case Lipo. I had the CC ICE 50A ESC running for data logging. The main motor amperage draw with this battery is 21 amps. This is more than the 17 amps I logged when using the Gens Ace 2S 1550mah 25C lipo. Interesting. I have a flight video. And the flight time in stunt mode is about 7:45 minutes.

I can get more aggressive pitch pumps using the Duratrax Onyx lipo. I can feel and hear the difference.

The Gens Ace wieghts 96.75 grams and the Duratrax Onyx is 105 grams. Stock lipo is 85.25 grams.

Plus I now fly with the stock carbon fiber blades.

Here is the flight video. Watch the second pitch pump. Pardon the tail blowout. I still have a few problems to iron out.

Walkera 4F200 Aggresive Pitch Pumps with 2000mah 25C Lipo (8 min 20 sec)
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Last edited by razorblade; Aug 06, 2012 at 12:28 AM. Reason: added reference to stock lipo wieght
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Old Aug 06, 2012, 12:58 AM
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Crap... been trying to get rid of this tail blow out. The only thing I haven't tried is to loosen the tail belt. Recently I had the main shaft out to replace the main shaft bearings and tail driven shaft bearings, so naturally I had to remove all tension on the tail belt; to get the driven shaft out; to replace the bearings. I consider replacing bearings general maintenance associated with any heli model that has them.

Last time I had tail issues it was because the belt was too tight.

Another problem I have is cyclic oscillation that comes and goes for no reason. At one point I was able to turn down cyclic gyro gain and the oscillation went away. Currently, I have the cyclic gain trim put on the AR7200BX turned all the way down... so not sure what else to do.

Also, I fear I have messed around with too many AR7200BX settings at once. I am considering resetting all settings to factory defaults and start over.

Frustrated!
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Old Aug 06, 2012, 01:02 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
On Saturday, I finally got two flights in with the Duratrax Onyx 2S 7.4V 2000mah 25C Soft Case Lipo. I had the CC ICE 50A ESC running for data logging. The main motor amperage draw with this battery is 21 amps. This is more than the 17 amps I logged when using the Gens Ace 2S 1550mah 25C lipo. Interesting. I have a flight video. And the flight time in stunt mode is about 7:45 minutes.

I can get more aggressive pitch pumps using the Duratrax Onyx lipo. I can feel and hear the difference.

The Gens Ace wieghts 96.75 grams and the Duratrax Onyx is 105 grams. Stock lipo is 85.25 grams.

Plus I now fly with the stock carbon fiber blades.

Here is the flight video. Watch the second pitch pump. Pardon the tail blowout. I still have a few problems to iron out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvssDaCRd3I

Razorblade, It looks like you have plenty of power there with your motor and batteries. Just my opinions here but i think you use too low a throttle setting in normal mode. Might want to bring it up some at mid stick and above. Especially for windy environments. I think your tail kick issue is in your blade/servo setup. I have gone extensively though blade options for the 4f200. As i have said in the past. I find the CF blades too rigid. They are wider then needed for a 3 blade head too, IMO. I have not tried the foam blades at all but they seem too iffy to fly at these speeds. Being foam. I mean after all we are talking about 3800-4500rpms on this helicopter. Plus having too much flex is not good for pitch pumps and 3d either. I find that i cannot do full pitch pump slaps to the extremes with the CF blades on and will kick the tail out like you did on your video. Those plastic 250 blades with the shrink wrap mounting method have honestly performed the best for me. I recently crashed and am "stuck" with the stock CF blades for now. I do not like them one bit any more. I can't wait to get back to plastic. It's also nice having a white rotor disk.

One thing that can be done/checked too, since your using alternative servos. Make sure your using stock mechanical gain on your servo arm. Or if you already are, and still have a tail kick. Reduce mechanical gain on the servo arm by moving the ball in closer to the servos one space. That will slow down your movement and also limit pitch throw some. Since your using faster servos, they might be too fast for the motor to keep the head speed up when you move the collective stick too fast, thus blowing out the tail. Just my 2 cents. I can flick the pitch stick with plastic blades. They have just enough flex that you might get a little drift on the tail but you still get good thrust.

Alternatively, try and blaze this beast up to about 4500-4700 rpm in a 3s config with enough torque to keep this thing flipping. As you have suggested before.
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Old Aug 06, 2012, 03:22 AM
Team WarpSquad
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Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Crap... been trying to get rid of this tail blow out. The only thing I haven't tried is to loosen the tail belt. Recently I had the main shaft out to replace the main shaft bearings and tail driven shaft bearings, so naturally I had to remove all tension on the tail belt; to get the driven shaft out; to replace the bearings. I consider replacing bearings general maintenance associated with any heli model that has them.

Last time I had tail issues it was because the belt was too tight.

...

Frustrated!
What is the max collective pitch you have? It sounds pretty aggressive. If it's too much then maybe you'll need bigger tail blades, wide/longer or both.

But first, I'd try backing off the top of your PIT curve to remain within 10-12 deg, maybe less since as IHWK says those CF blades are stiff and wide. You might get stronger response and better control if you don't overload the motor. Keeping RPM up you still end up moving the same amount of air with the main rotor and the tail can still keep up.

Just a thought though - it might not be relevant.
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Last edited by thwaitm; Aug 06, 2012 at 03:28 AM.
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Old Aug 07, 2012, 05:32 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Originally Posted by thwaitm View Post
What is the max collective pitch you have? It sounds pretty aggressive. If it's too much then maybe you'll need bigger tail blades, wide/longer or both.

But first, I'd try backing off the top of your PIT curve to remain within 10-12 deg, maybe less since as IHWK says those CF blades are stiff and wide. You might get stronger response and better control if you don't overload the motor. Keeping RPM up you still end up moving the same amount of air with the main rotor and the tail can still keep up.

Just a thought though - it might not be relevant.
Yeah, what he said...

The Trex 250 blades come in 200mm and 205mm. Don't ask me why, it makes no sense to me. The stock 4f200 blades are about 4mm wider than the Trex ones. But the Trex ones are much longer. approx 10+mm longer. (didn't measure) The width is really what creates stress on the rotor when pitch is induced. Length does not do a whole lot as far as moving air is concerned. Though, in my opinion, having a wider over all rotor disk does feel much more stable because of the centrifugal additive of the additional length. But the extra length adds stress on the servos making them need to use more torque to flip the helicopter around as fast as the shorter blades. Wind and things will affect the larger size disk as well (of course depending on head speed and other variances). While the width of the blades just seems to adjust the amount of air that the blade is capable of moving.

Wider blade = more air = more resistance = motor bogging = oops there goes my tail!



The only thing i can't figure out still is why the hell all my 200 size PLASTIC molded blades cost MORE than my 450's fiberglass molded blades when they are half the size. . Is plastic more expensive now and i missed the memo?
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Old Aug 07, 2012, 07:10 PM
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United States, MN, Coon Rapids
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IntegrityHndywrk & thwaitm,

Thanks guys. I will be looking at all aspects (pitch curves, throttle curves, blade options, belt tension, tail gyro gain).

I do have a set of TREX 250 white plastic blades that I have not used since August 2011.

Also, I overlooked a Tail Headlock Gain setting in the Parameter Menu of the AR7200BX. This is in addition to another Tail Dynamic gain pot on the receiver and the transmitter gain setting.

One thing I do not have is a set of larger tail blades.

I hope to have a chance for some field time today.


Sincerely,

Razorblade
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Old Aug 07, 2012, 08:39 PM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
IntegrityHndywrk & thwaitm,

Thanks guys. I will be looking at all aspects (pitch curves, throttle curves, blade options, belt tension, tail gyro gain).

I do have a set of TREX 250 white plastic blades that I have not used since August 2011.

Also, I overlooked a Tail Headlock Gain setting in the Parameter Menu of the AR7200BX. This is in addition to another Tail Dynamic gain pot on the receiver and the transmitter gain setting.

One thing I do not have is a set of larger tail blades.

I hope to have a chance for some field time today.


Sincerely,

Razorblade
I have toyed with the idea of using wider tail blades too. It ended up being easier to use narrow main blades go figure. I just couldn't find a set of wider blades i was happy with... i thought about using, MAYBE. the v120d02S main rotor blades shaved down to about 40mm and made to fit the blade grips. But i really can't be bothered with all of that. I like my white trex blades just for being white. I don't know why more blades are not made/available that are white since there actually seems to be a demand for it.
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Old Aug 07, 2012, 09:18 PM
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Joined May 2011
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I ordered an Align 15A ESC (designed to run an Align Trex 250). I'm thinking I might get away with replacing the 20A Walkera ESC with the Align 15A ESC as long as I don't get too frisky. My 4f200 jumps 90 degrees when I turn it up. I wanted something with a slow start and I am familiar with Align ESC's. I might try something different after I burn this one up but I hope it works.
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Old Aug 08, 2012, 12:16 AM
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Today I had some "me" time. Charged up the batteries. Loosened up the tail belt just a tad and reset the AR7200BX settings to factory defaults and went through the all beastx menus. I found out this gets easier and faster each time I do it.

Was in a rush to get all this done before the sun goes down, so I hope I didn't miss anything.

Then I took the 4F200 out to the field today for an hour and half before the sun set. Took two packs for me to dial it in good enough for my preference. I tried two different pitch curves and didn't like it. The diff pitch curves got rid of the tail blow out but there was a trade off that I didn't agree with. So I reverted back to the "Z" pitch curve. Still had the same tail blow out. Set the beastx Tail Headlock setting to "high". Still tail blowout but to a lesser degree. Set beastx Tail Precompensation to "high" and no more tail blow out. Its gone. The third pack was pure enjoyment.

There are five videos uploading to youtube right now. Might take all night to upload.
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Old Aug 08, 2012, 01:34 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChopperJack View Post
I ordered an Align 15A ESC (designed to run an Align Trex 250). I'm thinking I might get away with replacing the 20A Walkera ESC with the Align 15A ESC as long as I don't get too frisky. My 4f200 jumps 90 degrees when I turn it up. I wanted something with a slow start and I am familiar with Align ESC's. I might try something different after I burn this one up but I hope it works.
15A is about 5-7A short of the draw the stock motor will have. Good luck! If you don't fly 3d or pump the pitch you might be okay.


Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Today I had some "me" time. Charged up the batteries. Loosened up the tail belt just a tad and reset the AR7200BX settings to factory defaults and went through the all beastx menus. I found out this gets easier and faster each time I do it.

Was in a rush to get all this done before the sun goes down, so I hope I didn't miss anything.

Then I took the 4F200 out to the field today for an hour and half before the sun set. Took two packs for me to dial it in good enough for my preference. I tried two different pitch curves and didn't like it. The diff pitch curves got rid of the tail blow out but there was a trade off that I didn't agree with. So I reverted back to the "Z" pitch curve. Still had the same tail blow out. Set the beastx Tail Headlock setting to "high". Still tail blowout but to a lesser degree. Set beastx Tail Precompensation to "high" and no more tail blow out. Its gone. The third pack was pure enjoyment.

There are five videos uploading to youtube right now. Might take all night to upload.
Thats cool! sounds like beastX tail precompensation is basically Revo mixing. That is when mixing is done to make the tail blades decrease tail rotor pitch at low throttle and increase it at high throttle. It's basically mixing the rudder in with the normal CCPM pitch controls. Normally this is not used with HH gyros. But i'm sure with the BeastX system it is designed to work either way. I don't suspect it will have any affect on flight other than helping in your hard pitches. Since you have that option.... that is what you pay $230 just for the RX for after all

I think that option is also available in the WK RX/TX setup too. I just don' t think it will work with HH turned on. I thought i read about it in the manual or something.
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Old Aug 08, 2012, 11:07 PM
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United States, MN, Coon Rapids
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4F200 AR7200BX Tail Blowout with 2000mah 25C Lipo

Quote:
Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Today I had some "me" time. Charged up the batteries. Loosened up the tail belt just a tad and reset the AR7200BX settings to factory defaults and went through the all beastx menus. I found out this gets easier and faster each time I do it.

Was in a rush to get all this done before the sun goes down, so I hope I didn't miss anything.

Then I took the 4F200 out to the field today for an hour and half before the sun set. Took two packs for me to dial it in good enough for my preference. I tried two different pitch curves and didn't like it. The diff pitch curves got rid of the tail blow out but there was a trade off that I didn't agree with. So I reverted back to the "Z" pitch curve. Still had the same tail blow out. Set the beastx Tail Headlock setting to "high". Still tail blowout but to a lesser degree. Set beastx Tail Precompensation to "high" and no more tail blow out. Its gone. The third pack was pure enjoyment.

There are five videos uploading to youtube right now. Might take all night to upload.
And here are the videos in order. At the park, I was referred to as the "helicopter dude" and visited by a dog. Luckily I wasn't flying when the dog came around.

Oh and please offer any ideas to explain the tail twitch/glitch I experienced in the 4th video.

Enjoy!

4F200 AR7200BX Tail Blowout Issue with 2000mah 25C Lipo (7 min 11 sec)


4F200 AR7200BX Tail Blowout Issue 10-10-50-90-90 Pitch Curve (3 min 0 sec)


4F200 AR7200BX Tail Blowout Issue 5-5-50-95-95 Pitch Curve (2 min 9 sec)


4F200 AR7200BX Tail Blowout Gone 0-0-50-100-100 Pitch Curve (5 min 5 sec)


4F200 AR7200BX 2000mah 25C Worth Of 3D Enjoyment (8 min 54 sec)
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 12:05 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
And here are the videos in order. At the park, I was referred to as the "helicopter dude" and visited by a dog. Luckily I wasn't flying when the dog came around.

Oh and please offer any ideas to explain the tail twitch/glitch I experienced in the 4th video.

Enjoy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38SQzWPf1Rg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwUQJ5d6RGo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uku-QSlJCi8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIfLu3MN8GI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzyuvH8bYdM
My guess is you have your belt a little too loose now maybe? I recently had to replace my whole tail drive gear up front. The metal was worn and it was wearing the belts out quickly. Look inside your heli for black dust from the belt sheering and grinding. Don't forget, it's hot outside and the laws of physics play a little trick on you with your tail belt. This sneaky little bastard called thermal expansion creeps in as the helicopter runs and begins to stretch the belt just slightly. If it's too loose it might just start slipping after it gets warm from friction and being outside in the summer heat. Otherwise also look for some slop in the steering. Always check the balls on the rocker and slide assembly. I tend to wear out the little plastic ball link on the rocker that attaches to the slider ball. Sometimes i've even had that ball come loose.

Also you might be surprised at the performance difference when you shave some weight by removing that CC ICE. It's a heavy ESC somewhere around 40g i think. The stock ones and others are probably half the weight.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 12:31 AM
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San Jose, California
Joined Aug 2010
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subscribing.

I am attempting to setup the Rx2702v on my funcopter for 3-axis stablization. This is a fixed pitch heli, so I am not sure if anyone has attempted this line of action. I can get my cyclics working ok....but it is the darn rudder that I cant get to work properly.

How are you guys setting up the rudder?

I switch the dip to tail, hit the setup button until the green flashes on the rudder indicator...slowly give left rudder and hit setup button ... acknowledge....neutral,....repeat for right rudder...... sometimes when it is successfull, the rudder will toggle left right and center....

the problem is, when I give rudder input, it does not center ... as it should since the heli is sitting static on the ground....please help, i am getting frustrated. spent 3 hours sitting on the ground in the basement with NO result to speak of.

thanks
tengarang
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 01:46 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Coast
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Originally Posted by tengarang View Post
subscribing.

I am attempting to setup the Rx2702v on my funcopter for 3-axis stablization. This is a fixed pitch heli, so I am not sure if anyone has attempted this line of action. I can get my cyclics working ok....but it is the darn rudder that I cant get to work properly.

How are you guys setting up the rudder?

I switch the dip to tail, hit the setup button until the green flashes on the rudder indicator...slowly give left rudder and hit setup button ... acknowledge....neutral,....repeat for right rudder...... sometimes when it is successfull, the rudder will toggle left right and center....

the problem is, when I give rudder input, it does not center ... as it should since the heli is sitting static on the ground....please help, i am getting frustrated. spent 3 hours sitting on the ground in the basement with NO result to speak of.

thanks
tengarang
To set the rudder on the 2702V you would flip the switch for tail set and press the button till you enter setup mode. Once in setup mode you SHOULD be able to move your rudder back and forth normally to the FULL MAX EXTREMES. This is where you will be setting the neutral point. Once you verify that the rudder is operating and set up mechanically correct you can then let go of the rudder stick to let it fall to neutral and press the setup button again. You just set the neutral point and are now in LEFT ext mode. You will be setting the LEFT limit now by holding left on the stick till the slider is all the way to the end of the shaft. Then back off 0.5mm or so. Leave a tiny space so the servo does not strain pressing against the wall. Once you have it where you want it press the setup button again! You just set your LEFT rudder extension and are now in RIGHT ext mode. Press the stick to the right until you reach the end of the shaft and back off a little again. Once your happy with the position press the setup button one last time! The 2702 will move the rudder back and forth 3 times to indicate proper setup. After this you should be able to operate your rudder normally. Also make sure your rudder D. pot is turned ALL THE WAY DOWN.. it should be set that way from the factory already i think though. Now make sure, AND I MEAN DOUBLE CHECK AND TRIPLE CHECK!!!!! that your gyro is moving the tail the right way. That is to say that when you turn the helicopter the tail blades will move to push the air to counter your movement... if you move the tail left air should blow right to counter the movement. You need to also check that the gyros on the swash are always trying to keep the swash level when you tilt the helicopter. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT OR YOU WILL CRASH!.

Also, you mentioned that after you give input the rudder does not center.. With Heading hold gyros on these helicopters the rudder will not center unless you are flying. In fact the gyros and everything do not function properly unless you are in the air. Once in the air the HH gyro will always try and remember your heading and lock the rudder or adjust the rudder to compensate. Wile on the ground it is common for the rudder to move to one side on it's own for no reason. Once you start spinning up it should start to correct the torque from rotation of the main blades.
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Old Aug 09, 2012, 03:27 AM
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San Jose, California
Joined Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
To set the rudder on the 2702V you would flip the switch for tail set and press the button till you enter setup mode. Once in setup mode you SHOULD be able to move your rudder back and forth normally to the FULL MAX EXTREMES. This is where you will be setting the neutral point. Once you verify that the rudder is operating and set up mechanically correct you can then let go of the rudder stick to let it fall to neutral and press the setup button again. You just set the neutral point and are now in LEFT ext mode. You will be setting the LEFT limit now by holding left on the stick till the slider is all the way to the end of the shaft. Then back off 0.5mm or so. Leave a tiny space so the servo does not strain pressing against the wall. Once you have it where you want it press the setup button again! You just set your LEFT rudder extension and are now in RIGHT ext mode. Press the stick to the right until you reach the end of the shaft and back off a little again. Once your happy with the position press the setup button one last time! The 2702 will move the rudder back and forth 3 times to indicate proper setup. After this you should be able to operate your rudder normally. Also make sure your rudder D. pot is turned ALL THE WAY DOWN.. it should be set that way from the factory already i think though. Now make sure, AND I MEAN DOUBLE CHECK AND TRIPLE CHECK!!!!! that your gyro is moving the tail the right way. That is to say that when you turn the helicopter the tail blades will move to push the air to counter your movement... if you move the tail left air should blow right to counter the movement. You need to also check that the gyros on the swash are always trying to keep the swash level when you tilt the helicopter. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT OR YOU WILL CRASH!.

Also, you mentioned that after you give input the rudder does not center.. With Heading hold gyros on these helicopters the rudder will not center unless you are flying. In fact the gyros and everything do not function properly unless you are in the air. Once in the air the HH gyro will always try and remember your heading and lock the rudder or adjust the rudder to compensate. Wile on the ground it is common for the rudder to move to one side on it's own for no reason. Once you start spinning up it should start to correct the torque from rotation of the main blades.
Thank you for your valuable words and time invested to clarify, I will not give up and take your suggestions and try again tomorrow night after i get home from the office....until then, I can only thank you for your help, since I have not had the chance to try...its late ... but tomorrow ill go at it again.

thanks
regards

tengarang
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