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Old May 04, 2012, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Is that 20% gyro gain in heading hold mode or 20% gyro gain in rate mode?



I agree. I also make sure the tail pitch slider is located in the center of its mechanical travel at the same time when the tail gyro is positioned at its electrical center. The tail pitch slider I am referring to is in the black aluminum mechanism in the next image.






Maybe ensuring the tail pitch slider is located in the center of its travel will fix this? The tail servo initializes to its electric center position after the rx is bound to the tx. Check for tail pitch slider center after the tail servo is centered. If its not, make some adjustments. I also try my best to make sure the pitch slider has full travel both ways and that the servo stops when the slider has reach its maximum travel on both sides of the tail shaft. I don't own a 2801 pro so I am not sure if there is a tail servo travel adjustment you can mess with.

I sure hope you figure out your tail problems. Having a tail that performs is very crucial for an enjoyable flight.

Flipping the gyro to 20% or 30% on the 2801pro should turn off the LED light on the RX, which indicates rate mode. For 3d flight the rudder normally should be, at least in my experience, setup to operate in rate mode with just a little bit of anti-torque. If the rudder is not positioned so that the helicopter will not Yaw in rate mode then 3d flight like flips and rolls will probably confuse the hell out of your gyro and cause a tail spin of some kind. At least this much is true for the V120 size and i have finally pinpointed this as the issue causing my tailspins while inverted, along with power output and bogging the motor while inverted. Once i was able to flip my helicopter into rate mode without any Yaw or tail spinning i wan able to perform inverted flight and flips without any of those same problems. With the rocker arm and bell crank set to "neutral" 90 degrees I was unable to get inverted without full tailspin occurring. Today was actually the first time i was able to invert my v120's for weeks now. It used to be very easy on my v120d02S too, so i was pulling my hair out till i discovered this. Unfortunately i managed to capture all the worst flights on film today. I had 3 very good inverted/3d flights (with smaller, lighter batteries) before i got the camera out for the 02S. I have accomplished heading hold mechanically with RATE mode at %20 on my 4f200 and will try inverting it at a later date. It seems that the 4f200 with 3 blades has sooo much tail authority, it probably hardly needs any movement on the left side of the shaft to perform a decent speed piro. The helicopter still turns very quickly both directions still. I'm not sure if this is correct with the 4f200 yet, but with the v120's if mechanical Heading lock is not accomplished in RATE mode by setting the gyro at 20% in the TX, they will tailspin when inverted. So take a look at the videos and see what you think.

V120D02S Inverted flight with crashes:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...leet/V120D02S/

V120D05CS-Pro Inverted Flight with crashes:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...eet/V120D05CS/

And just for the fun of it, if you are bored enough, a quick test flight i shot with my v450 after repairs from front flipping it into the ground and installing new white rotor and tail blades:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...Fleet/V450D01/

The last one is not as dramatic unfortunately. Keep in mind all of these are shot in 35+ Mph gusting winds.
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Old May 04, 2012, 06:38 AM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
So I've been using an mCPX as my 3D trainer performing flips and rolls and attempting inverted hovers... at some point when I become confident enough, I would like to transition some of these maneuvers over to the 4F200.


But I don't want this to happen.... crash ... watch the video at around 0:50.

( i feel for this person )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSw2eeyFD-g

Enjoy!
Hey! it was a nice try i need some time to try the 3D . maybe summertime
Have u setted right the pitch and throttle curves? cuz i heard a little low head speed on it. maybe thats why u cant hold it from the loop.
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Old May 04, 2012, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by deliver1003 View Post
Hey! it was a nice try i need some time to try the 3D . maybe summertime
Have u setted right the pitch and throttle curves? cuz i heard a little low head speed on it. maybe thats why u cant hold it from the loop.
Oh no... this wasn't me. This was a video of some other person I found on youtube.
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Old May 04, 2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
Flipping the gyro to 20% or 30% on the 2801pro should turn off the LED light on the RX, which indicates rate mode. For 3d flight the rudder normally should be, at least in my experience, setup to operate in rate mode with just a little bit of anti-torque. If the rudder is not positioned so that the helicopter will not Yaw in rate mode then 3d flight like flips and rolls will probably confuse the hell out of your gyro and cause a tail spin of some kind. At least this much is true for the V120 size and i have finally pinpointed this as the issue causing my tailspins while inverted, along with power output and bogging the motor while inverted. Once i was able to flip my helicopter into rate mode without any Yaw or tail spinning i wan able to perform inverted flight and flips without any of those same problems. With the rocker arm and bell crank set to "neutral" 90 degrees I was unable to get inverted without full tailspin occurring. Today was actually the first time i was able to invert my v120's for weeks now. It used to be very easy on my v120d02S too, so i was pulling my hair out till i discovered this. Unfortunately i managed to capture all the worst flights on film today. I had 3 very good inverted/3d flights (with smaller, lighter batteries) before i got the camera out for the 02S. I have accomplished heading hold mechanically with RATE mode at %20 on my 4f200 and will try inverting it at a later date. It seems that the 4f200 with 3 blades has sooo much tail authority, it probably hardly needs any movement on the left side of the shaft to perform a decent speed piro. The helicopter still turns very quickly both directions still. I'm not sure if this is correct with the 4f200 yet, but with the v120's if mechanical Heading lock is not accomplished in RATE mode by setting the gyro at 20% in the TX, they will tailspin when inverted. So take a look at the videos and see what you think.

V120D02S Inverted flight with crashes:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...leet/V120D02S/

V120D05CS-Pro Inverted Flight with crashes:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...eet/V120D05CS/

And just for the fun of it, if you are bored enough, a quick test flight i shot with my v450 after repairs from front flipping it into the ground and installing new white rotor and tail blades:
http://integrityhandiwork.com/ebay/H...Fleet/V450D01/

The last one is not as dramatic unfortunately. Keep in mind all of these are shot in 35+ Mph gusting winds.
I have the gyro on all my helis set to heading hold mode. I guess I don't understand why you're not using heading hold mode. Here's a good simlple explanation on the difference because I just couldn't remember until I read this again.

Gyro question. What's the difference between "Rate Mode" and "Heading Hold"

By the way, I enjoyed your videos.

The tail on my Blade mCPX also blows out in 3D maneuvers and when it does it continues into a piro frenzy that can't be stopped. To overcome this I had to learn collective management (the advice of the crowd for this heli), which basically means, be gentle on the sticks. Took me about 2 months to figure it out. Part of the reason is the mCPX is a lazy and under-powered heli. If I am aggressive on the cyclic and throttle sticks, the heli would lose head speed and the main motor would hog up battery power as its attempts to restore head speed, thus, leaving less battery power available for the tail motor to use.

I suppose the same thing happens with belt driven and shaft driven tails. When head speed is lost, you also lose some tail authority.
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Old May 04, 2012, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
I have the gyro on all my helis set to heading hold mode. I guess I don't understand why you're not using heading hold mode. Here's a good simlple explanation on the difference because I just couldn't remember until I read this again.

Gyro question. What's the difference between "Rate Mode" and "Heading Hold"

By the way, I enjoyed your videos.

The tail on my Blade mCPX also blows out in 3D maneuvers and when it does it continues into a piro frenzy that can't be stopped. To overcome this I had to learn collective management (the advice of the crowd for this heli), which basically means, be gentle on the sticks. Took me about 2 months to figure it out. Part of the reason is the mCPX is a lazy and under-powered heli. If I am aggressive on the cyclic and throttle sticks, the heli would lose head speed and the main motor would hog up battery power as its attempts to restore head speed, thus, leaving less battery power available for the tail motor to use.

I suppose the same thing happens with belt driven and shaft driven tails. When head speed is lost, you also lose some tail authority.
I am in using heading hold to fly the helicopter. But to set up the rudder i use rate mode. I've also seen some suggest using rate mode for 3d, don't know about that yet though. However I've found using this method of rate mode to set up the rudder to be "Mechanically heading locked", so to say, makes the gyro have to work less and have less issues when inverted or otherwise when using heading lock gyro mode.

I might be completely wrong. I'm new to this, you know? But my helicopters would not perform the way i wanted them too, especially inverted, doing any kind of roll or flip. The tail could go crazy. Setting the rudder to be mechanically able to counter torque the main rotor, without any gyro doing the work seems to be optimal. The way i do it is using rate mode. Perhaps this is not correct? I am pretty much self taught, and have came to this conclusion on my own as an independent researcher. But for the fun of it, for this post. I looked again and i found this "how to" setup guide. looks about how i do things actually: http://www.rcheliwiki.com/Tail_setup...chanical_setup
This part is very pertinent to what i am talking about too and also answers my question as to why i had to move the steering slider so far over to achieve rudder setup in rate mode :
http://www.rcheliwiki.com/Tail_setup...chanical_setup

As far and head speed and tail authority. Attempting 3d on my V120d05CS-Pro is actually risky business because the tail rotor ratio is only 2.5 rotations for every 1 main rotor rotation. This is very poor tail authority, the motor helps but also puts wear on the parts. I previously broke my anti-rotation arm on the head and CA'ed it back on. I think it may have broke in mid flight when i went to invert and, maybe it caused the whole crash.. I don't know but i have some work to do to get both of them working optimal again. Unfortunately i have to readjust both their tail rudders again. And my 4f200 is performing great still with the rudder setup mechanically with anti-torque. I am scared to do piros or anything too aggressive yet because i only just got it back in flying condition again but the tail ratio on the 4f200 is like 4:1 or something crazy, plus its a 3 blade rotor. It hardly needs any pitch in the one direction it seems to spin 'er around. Still testing though.
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Old May 05, 2012, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by IntegrityHndywrk View Post
I am in using heading hold to fly the helicopter. But to set up the rudder i use rate mode. I've also seen some suggest using rate mode for 3d, don't know about that yet though. However I've found using this method of rate mode to set up the rudder to be "Mechanically heading locked", so to say, makes the gyro have to work less and have less issues when inverted or otherwise when using heading lock gyro mode.
Oh I see. I remember reading an article about a method of setting up the tail which involved using gyro rate mode first then finally switching to heading hold mode. Which there's nothing wrong with that and this is the method you are following along with many other. Since there are a lot of followers, it must be working. Its the "wisdom of the crowd". But its not the only method.

I have the Spektrum AR7200BX BeastX (3 axis flight stabilization system) installed onto my 4F200 and there are also similar instructions which describes using rate mode for initial setup as well. I myself don't use that method and I've never had a problem so far. I just follow the usual of setting up the tail mechanically first and then setting it up electronically using heading hold mode. For me mechanical setup involves finding the tail servo center, set servo horn to 90 degrees, make sure the tail pitch slider is positioned at the center of its mechanical travel.

For me electrical setup involves defining rudder servo electrical endpoints and then adjusting gyro heading hold gain. In a nutshell, setting endpoints is kinda like defining a servos range of throw. I do this because the rudder servo is capable or more throw than what the tail pitch slider will allow. What I mean is the slider is limited mechanically on how much it can slide to the left and to the right. This is limited by the length of the tail shaft. And what nobody wants is a servo that is working hard to move slider beyond its mechanical limit. Imagine using all your strength to close a door that is already closed - you would get worn out doing so. Some receivers (gyros) are capable of adjusting each endpoint (left and right) independently, while others only have one setting. Once I get the endpoints setup - I play around with gyro heading hold gain setting. And thats pretty much it (depending on type of gyro and heli). The AR7200BX has other tail settings - such as one that defines how hard or soft the tail comes to a stop.

I could be wrong here too - I am new to this hobby (one year) - but its been working very well for me so far. I also have a background in electronics, micro processor programming that helps. Plus I have studied up on rc flight mechanics and how digital servos work and about the signals (commands) that servos receive from a receiver.

Last note, I've also read about another technique for mechanical setup where the goal is to have the tail pitch set at 4 degrees when the rudder servo is centered. This results with the tail pitch slider not being centered in its mechanical travel - which is not a big deal. There's also a claim that the rudder servo doesn't have to work as hard - of which I think is a false claim if you consider all mechanical and electrical factors. The only benefit I can perceive is the tail will have pitch to counter main rotor torque at spool up - that's it. Have you ever spool up in stunt mode and had the heli spin around 360 degrees while the landing skids are still on the ground? This method would prevent that.
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Old May 05, 2012, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by razorblade View Post
Oh I see. I remember reading an article about a method of setting up the tail which involved using gyro rate mode first then finally switching to heading hold mode. Which there's nothing wrong with that and this is the method you are following along with many other. Since there are a lot of followers, it must be working. Its the "wisdom of the crowd". But its not the only method.

I have the Spektrum AR7200BX BeastX (3 axis flight stabilization system) installed onto my 4F200 and there are also similar instructions which describes using rate mode for initial setup as well. I myself don't use that method and I've never had a problem so far. I just follow the usual of setting up the tail mechanically first and then setting it up electronically using heading hold mode. For me mechanical setup involves finding the tail servo center, set servo horn to 90 degrees, make sure the tail pitch slider is positioned at the center of its mechanical travel.

For me electrical setup involves defining rudder servo electrical endpoints and then adjusting gyro heading hold gain. In a nutshell, setting endpoints is kinda like defining a servos range of throw. I do this because the rudder servo is capable or more throw than what the tail pitch slider will allow. What I mean is the slider is limited mechanically on how much it can slide to the left and to the right. This is limited by the length of the tail shaft. And what nobody wants is a servo that is working hard to move slider beyond its mechanical limit. Imagine using all your strength to close a door that is already closed - you would get worn out doing so. Some receivers (gyros) are capable of adjusting each endpoint (left and right) independently, while others only have one setting. Once I get the endpoints setup - I play around with gyro heading hold gain setting. And thats pretty much it (depending on type of gyro and heli). The AR7200BX has other tail settings - such as one that defines how hard or soft the tail comes to a stop.

I could be wrong here too - I am new to this hobby (one year) - but its been working very well for me so far. I also have a background in electronics, micro processor programming that helps. Plus I have studied up on rc flight mechanics and how digital servos work and about the signals (commands) that servos receive from a receiver.

Last note, I've also read about another technique for mechanical setup where the goal is to have the tail pitch set at 4 degrees when the rudder servo is centered. This results with the tail pitch slider not being centered in its mechanical travel - which is not a big deal. There's also a claim that the rudder servo doesn't have to work as hard - of which I think is a false claim if you consider all mechanical and electrical factors. The only benefit I can perceive is the tail will have pitch to counter main rotor torque at spool up - that's it. Have you ever spool up in stunt mode and had the heli spin around 360 degrees while the landing skids are still on the ground? This method would prevent that.
The eventuality that lead to me using rate mode to set up my tail was that on my v120d02S, as soon as inversion occurred the tail would spin out. Now i was also battling with a newly installed slipper clutch on the tail that could be the issue also. Now that i am setting up the rudder on the v120d02S so that at 20% gyro (rate mode) i get no yaw when i flip the switch, and if anything i get counter torque by a few degrees (the tail moves slightly to the right instead of to the left with the main rotor torque) when pitch pumping in rate mode. Since doing this i have not had an issue with inverting. Other than if i over throw my pitch and bog the motor, like we talked about earlier. Though the v120d02s can take full pitch pumps while inverted pretty damn well when its new and setup correctly. I don't really know STILL though if setting mechanical center for HH mode is okay and the gyro will do all the work, but my slipper clutch could be the whole problem. Now that i am trying to invert my V120d05CS-pro I should be able to determine more about the issue since they are both using the same RX. The problem with all of these Walkera RX is they only have a single adjustment for total travel. No end point configure so you have to limit servo travel so the servo does not over exert itself like you were just saying about trying to throw farther than the slider can go. I just completed setup of my v450 which has end point adjustment. I adjusted the servo rod for anti-torque at 20% gyro. I am still not ready to try to invert it though. I just want to see how it turns and responds in normal flight. I don't really need super fast piro speed yet. As long as it still whips the tail around both directions just as fast with no lag or odd reactions i think this might be the best way, just in case the gyro gets confused the mechanics are still able to hold heading. I am almost tempted to try inverting and doing flips and rolls in rate mode.

All of that being said. Every RX is different and every one will react differently. My 4f200 is using a 2618V and it also does not have end point control so i came here hoping more people would have input about this. I'm scared to try to invert my 4f200 because of the issues i had with the v120d02. On top of that, it seems the 4f200 just has poor inverted abilities anyway? Something about negative pitch maybe?
But i have to make sure i get all of this correct before i try a flip or loop even. Its weird, i had no fear of trying till the crashes werent my fault. Now i have no confidence because i don't know if i can trust my 4f200 and 450 to work proper because of the v120 performance. My 4f200 browing out into a tree didn't help, but i guess if i crash in 3d it would at least be my fault
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Old May 08, 2012, 08:31 AM
Team WarpSquad
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End point control for an RX without it is done in the TX using TRADJ. If you think about it and understand how it might work then you come to the conclusion that it's basically the same result (at least for an amateur). If anyone can tell the difference then I would wonder why they are flying Walkera rather than something a little more Pro, like a Logo, <insert favourite make here>, etc.
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Old May 08, 2012, 02:32 PM
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So I just got in a new V200D03 to add to my fleet and I'm already eyeing mods, specifically I'm looking at the 4F200 belt drive for the tail. Given that the frames are the same I assume the conversion is possible, anyone tried it?

Just from looking at the parts I'd say swapping the tailbox and the tail drive layshaft would be the biggest changes. Does anyone know if the boom diameters are different? If so then a new tail block and all the associated tail bits' mounts would need changing... that might make it more of a pain than it's worth.

Maybe LB will make a slipper clutch? Either way, I've just been doing preliminary checks and tethered spin-ups for the moment, and this thing looks pretty beastly compared to my 120's. Better safe than sorry with something this size, not that I don't trust in walkera "quality control"
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Old May 08, 2012, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TucsonFlyer View Post
So I just got in a new V200D03 to add to my fleet and I'm already eyeing mods, specifically I'm looking at the 4F200 belt drive for the tail. Given that the frames are the same I assume the conversion is possible, anyone tried it?

Just from looking at the parts I'd say swapping the tailbox and the tail drive layshaft would be the biggest changes. Does anyone know if the boom diameters are different? If so then a new tail block and all the associated tail bits' mounts would need changing... that might make it more of a pain than it's worth.

Maybe LB will make a slipper clutch? Either way, I've just been doing preliminary checks and tethered spin-ups for the moment, and this thing looks pretty beastly compared to my 120's. Better safe than sorry with something this size, not that I don't trust in walkera "quality control"
I was going to get one myself but got a v450 instead. Bob wanted to work with me to maybe develop a clutch for it though. Or at the least see if its even possible. You might let him know your willing to do testing and send him photos, etc.

As for the tail conversion, looking at the diagrams, as this was my original plan and have looked into it. I would buy a new tail box, shaft, rotor, steering assembly. Basically everything located on the end of the tail boom. I think the boom it's self and the boom holder are the same. You will need to also get a drive belt of course and the front drive gear assembly. The direct drive shaft assembly that it comes with uses the same mounting spot and frame pieces they just put a cone gear on the shaft instead of a belt gear. That should be all. Let me know how it works out. It should be a beast with crazy tail authority and lots of power too with the 3s motor installed.
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Old May 08, 2012, 04:54 PM
Team WarpSquad
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I have a video of the V200D03 on my YouTube and so does Kopteri.
It's a great heli even with a TT tail. Doesn't hold a hover like the V120D02S but flies very nicely. Tail is very solid.
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Old May 08, 2012, 05:35 PM
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I have a video of the V200D03 on my YouTube and so does Kopteri.
It's a great heli even with a TT tail. Doesn't hold a hover like the V120D02S but flies very nicely. Tail is very solid.
Good to hear that you're enjoying your V200! I'm still checking all the mechanicals over on mine, no sense cratering it over a loose screw I'm really hoping I can use the V200 a bit more than my 120's now that summer has come and the afternoon winds are picking up here in Tucson.

This is my first heli above the 120 class so it's a bit intimidating Even just spooling it up I can feel how much more powerful it is than the 120s and how much more mass there is spinning around. I did the math and it's got a little over twice the disc area of a 120 and almost 3 times the area per blade. If I had a scale fine enough I'd try and comparing lift with my D02S. It might even carry a taco delivery
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Old May 08, 2012, 06:46 PM
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Good to hear that you're enjoying your V200! I'm still checking all the mechanicals over on mine, no sense cratering it over a loose screw I'm really hoping I can use the V200 a bit more than my 120's now that summer has come and the afternoon winds are picking up here in Tucson.

This is my first heli above the 120 class so it's a bit intimidating Even just spooling it up I can feel how much more powerful it is than the 120s and how much more mass there is spinning around. I did the math and it's got a little over twice the disc area of a 120 and almost 3 times the area per blade. If I had a scale fine enough I'd try and comparing lift with my D02S. It might even carry a taco delivery
Yeah, totally different beast from the V120 but also way less intimidating than a V450.
I think if you are confident with the 120 you'll have a blast with the 200.
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Old May 08, 2012, 08:13 PM
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Plus you can still fly the 200 in your driveway pretty safely. The 450 not so much.

Definitely loc-tite any screws that are metal on metal. Including your swashplate balls and tail box! BE VERY CAREFUL NOT TO STRIP THE ALUMINUM SWASH! Over tightening or cross threading on the aluminum swash can be a big problem. Any screws that are metal on metal only snugg down kind of tight, but make sure to use a drop of thread lock.
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Old May 09, 2012, 01:13 PM
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[QUOTE=TucsonFlyer;21555465]So I just got in a new V200D03 to add to my fleet and I'm already eyeing mods, specifically I'm looking at the 4F200 belt drive for the tail. Given that the frames are the same I assume the conversion is possible, anyone tried it?

Just from looking at the parts I'd say swapping the tailbox and the tail drive layshaft would be the biggest changes. Does anyone know if the boom diameters are different? If so then a new tail block and all the associated tail bits' mounts would need changing... that might make it more of a pain than it's worth.
################################################
I have a V200D03, and a 4F200.
I was just looking at the differences between the two tails.
You would have to replace the tail rotor assemby, and the tail belt drive rotor parts in the body.
The tail boom looks the same, and the tail boom block looks the same.

I converted a 4F200 to a 2 blade version, which is a much easier mod. All you have to do is change the head, but if you want to fly it on 3s you have to change the motor, and probably the ESC. I fly mine on 2s.

The V200D03 is a screamer compared to the 4F200.
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