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Old Jun 10, 2010, 06:07 PM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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Manual for Super Tigre ST 2000 25c wanted

I have just bought a very nice Jiant Jabberwock biplane (a veteran UK design by Don Stothers) fitted with a Super Tigre ST2000 which has "25cc" stamped on one of the mounting lugs.
It also has "made in Italy" on the crankcase casting, so I assume it's an older model, made before they moved to China. It came withan 18x6 APC Wide prop.
The package sadly came with no information on the engine except that it was "only just run in" (arent they all?).
Can anyone help me out with a scan of the appropriate operating manual for this particular model of this engine? All the stuff I've found on the WWW seems to be for the later Chinese "2300".
Also, can you point me in the direction of any further useful information about operating this engine?
Thanks if you can.
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Old Jun 10, 2010, 07:33 PM
Ron - AMA 1025
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St

The 25 means it's a 2500 - these instructions will still apply - http://manuals.hobbico.com/sup/sup-manual-v1_1.pdf
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 03:13 AM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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Super Tigre G2500 instructions

Quote:
Originally Posted by ronwc View Post
The 25 means it's a 2500 - these instructions will still apply - http://manuals.hobbico.com/sup/sup-manual-v1_1.pdf
Thanks very much for your very quick and helpful reply.
I have looked at this and whilst it seems to give all the basic information, it actually doesn’t cover the G2000 25cc - it only mentions the G2300 which I believe is the later, Chinese made 23cc engine that externally looks quite a bit different to mine.
Maybe the operating differences aren't that significant, but I've read somewhere about that the earlier engines (like mine), made in Italy, are very particular about fuel, using an unusually low oil content of around 10-12% and 0% nitro. It's this that I'm trying to verify.
My best bet may be to find someone who has a copy of the manual applying to these earlier engines (before Hobbico took over ST from the Italians) and get a scan of that.
Anyway, thanks again for your kind help.
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 11:43 AM
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Malcolm,

I don't have the original ST2000 series manual in front of me but I don't recall it saying anything about low oil content (10-12%) fuel. That was an addendum from Great Planes/Hobbico here in the states (although I wouldn't know about engines distributed in the UK).

In anycase, the low oil content became quite the rage here when these engines were sold here. I however, never saw any better performance than using plain old 15% nitro, 18% oil fuel and an idle bar plug. A K&B 1L being the best. I also don't remember the low oil content fuels being 0% nitro. More like 5-10%.

Personally, I don't think many people realized that the ST have a "mid-range" adjustment on the carburator. You can loosen the two little screws and rotate the needle assembly up or down to lean or richen the mid range throttle response. That and regular 15% fuel worked just fine for me. With you being in the UK, I understand 15% nitro fuel can be prohibitive to obtain so maybe the 0% nitro, 10-12% oil fuel is the solution.

In the end, I ended up converting all my large ST engines to run on gasoline.....er, petrol to you.

Mike
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Old Jun 11, 2010, 04:38 PM
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The 2300 is quite a bit different engine then the 2000 2500 3000; They are all good engines but need to be run their way. Here is the "manual" that I have it is only 2 pages.
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Old Jun 12, 2010, 04:16 PM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CryHavoc View Post
Malcolm,

I don't have the original ST2000 series manual in front of me but I don't recall it saying anything about low oil content (10-12%) fuel. That was an addendum from Great Planes/Hobbico here in the states (although I wouldn't know about engines distributed in the UK).

In anycase, the low oil content became quite the rage here when these engines were sold here. I however, never saw any better performance than using plain old 15% nitro, 18% oil fuel and an idle bar plug. A K&B 1L being the best. I also don't remember the low oil content fuels being 0% nitro. More like 5-10%.

Personally, I don't think many people realized that the ST have a "mid-range" adjustment on the carburator. You can loosen the two little screws and rotate the needle assembly up or down to lean or richen the mid range throttle response. That and regular 15% fuel worked just fine for me. With you being in the UK, I understand 15% nitro fuel can be prohibitive to obtain so maybe the 0% nitro, 10-12% oil fuel is the solution.

In the end, I ended up converting all my large ST engines to run on gasoline.....er, petrol to you.

Mike
Mike - Thanks for this very helpful information - in my growing muddle about how to run an ST 2000 25cc - so much conflicting information out there!
The two little screws you mention, on my engine, are sealed with white paint to stop them being undone - so I suspect this is a factory setting that is best not touched - unless there is a definite problem.
I intend to run my new engine soon on a test bench and see how it perfoms - especially the mid range throttle transition.
Can I come back to you if it is not running well and I think I need to make this needle assembly adjustment?
It is true that here in the UK nitro is apparently much more expensive than in the US - so there seems to have become a style here of not having so much nitro in our glow fuel, as you do in the US.
But - another helpful forum member who has an ST 2000 25cc has copied me his original ST Italian instuctions and these recommend (after break in) using 10-12% castor and only a little nitro say 5-10% "to improve performance and idling". It goes on to say that using fuel with more "normal" 18-20% oil is likely to be "prejudicial to the performance of the engine".
Petrol (gas) operation - hmmm - that's another whole ballpark to consider - later.
I'l try it first on glow with my usual "normal fuel" - which is 18% synthetic oil and 10% nitro.
You've been very helpful - can I come back to you with any queries I find I have after test running the engine?
My thanks.......
Malcolm
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Old Jun 12, 2010, 04:26 PM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gzkpez View Post
The 2300 is quite a bit different engine then the 2000 2500 3000; They are all good engines but need to be run their way. Here is the "manual" that I have it is only 2 pages.
Sir
This very helpful and is what I was particularly looking for - these are obviously (from the rather broken "Italianish") - the original istructions for the ST 2000-25cc when it was still being manufactured by the Italian ST company - those who made my particular engine. They clearly seem to recommend 10-12% castor oil (I guess could be substituted for a good quality synthetic oil) and less, rather than more, nitro.
Do you yourself have a ST2000-25cc and if so what are your experiences of the best fuel to use?
Many thanks for your help.
Malcolm
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Old Jun 12, 2010, 10:45 PM
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I have a well used 25cc and a new never ran 3000. The 2500 ran good. It did like one glow plug over another, maybe it was a cold plug that it liked or a Fox miracle plug. Low nitro and low oil is the secret of the older supertigre 2000 2500 engines; the fuel was made for the tiger. I would not worry to much about running synthetic oil if it is first rate. The oil you can get in the UK is much better then most of the synthetic we have here. I personally still use synthetic with a little bit of Castor added.

While putting away the instructions I found the attached instructions for the carb. All SuperTigre carbs are about the same from the 70s till now. They work well, but are different from the OS type. Some people did not like the Mag carb, but I was use to using it on a older 60 and liked the throttle responce.


What the instructions do not say is about rotating the shaft. All I remember is the hole should point down. Maybe some of the newer instructions or older say how to full adjust it if needed. The 2500 was the best running of the 3 large SuperTigres of that era in my opinion. It is not a real power house but a good running engine.
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Old Jun 13, 2010, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gzkpez View Post
I have a well used 25cc and a new never ran 3000. The 2500 ran good. It did like one glow plug over another, maybe it was a cold plug that it liked or a Fox miracle plug. Low nitro and low oil is the secret of the older supertigre 2000 2500 engines; the fuel was made for the tiger. I would not worry to much about running synthetic oil if it is first rate. The oil you can get in the UK is much better then most of the synthetic we have here. I personally still use synthetic with a little bit of Castor added.

While putting away the instructions I found the attached instructions for the carb. All SuperTigre carbs are about the same from the 70s till now. They work well, but are different from the OS type. Some people did not like the Mag carb, but I was use to using it on a older 60 and liked the throttle responce.


What the instructions do not say is about rotating the shaft. All I remember is the hole should point down. Maybe some of the newer instructions or older say how to full adjust it if needed. The 2500 was the best running of the 3 large SuperTigres of that era in my opinion. It is not a real power house but a good running engine.
Once again with these carb instructions, you have provided me with exactly what I was searching for - thanks very much - I owe you a very large beer!
Malcolm
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Old Jun 13, 2010, 07:42 AM
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Malcolm,

Those PDFs are newer than the instructions that I have. I've bought a bunch of Super Tigre motors and I've never seen any paint on the carb barrel screws. I highly doubt they came from the factory that way.

Like gzkpez, I like the ST carbs. In fact, when I was heavy into FAI Helicopters, one of the smoothest engines I ever flew was an Enya .60 Al-Chrome with a ST carb. Not the most powerful compared with todays OS and YS heli engines but really smooth.

Definitely start with factory settings. But if you just can't get the throttle response you want, you CAN play with the mid-range adjustment. All moving it does is change the point where the mixture transitions from the low speed needle to the high. You can always put it back where it originally was if it doesn't help you.

Again, about the fuel. I've run both regular oil content fuel and the low oil content stuff. Both worked fine but I just saw better performance with the regular stuff so I stuck with it. "Prejudicial" or not I just saw no point in keeping yet another different fuel laying around if I didn't need it. BTW... my fuel is all synthetic from a proven manufacturer. I also always run out any fuel remaining in the engine after the last flight and use after-run oil.

One other tip I want to add. Be careful flipping the prop after the first start. For whatever reason. My large STs are the only engine that have started running on me WITHOUT having the glow igniter attached. It happened several times while either priming the engine or just flipping the prop through. The first time it happened I was surprised. After the engine started I reached for the ignitier and realized I had never attached it. It surprised me but I blew it off as a once in a lifetime thing. After the second time it happened I started treating the engine with a heck of lot more respect.

Mike
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Old Jun 14, 2010, 02:32 AM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CryHavoc View Post
Malcolm,

Those PDFs are newer than the instructions that I have. I've bought a bunch of Super Tigre motors and I've never seen any paint on the carb barrel screws. I highly doubt they came from the factory that way.

Like gzkpez, I like the ST carbs. In fact, when I was heavy into FAI Helicopters, one of the smoothest engines I ever flew was an Enya .60 Al-Chrome with a ST carb. Not the most powerful compared with todays OS and YS heli engines but really smooth.

Definitely start with factory settings. But if you just can't get the throttle response you want, you CAN play with the mid-range adjustment. All moving it does is change the point where the mixture transitions from the low speed needle to the high. You can always put it back where it originally was if it doesn't help you.

Again, about the fuel. I've run both regular oil content fuel and the low oil content stuff. Both worked fine but I just saw better performance with the regular stuff so I stuck with it. "Prejudicial" or not I just saw no point in keeping yet another different fuel laying around if I didn't need it. BTW... my fuel is all synthetic from a proven manufacturer. I also always run out any fuel remaining in the engine after the last flight and use after-run oil.

One other tip I want to add. Be careful flipping the prop after the first start. For whatever reason. My large STs are the only engine that have started running on me WITHOUT having the glow igniter attached. It happened several times while either priming the engine or just flipping the prop through. The first time it happened I was surprised. After the engine started I reached for the ignitier and realized I had never attached it. It surprised me but I blew it off as a once in a lifetime thing. After the second time it happened I started treating the engine with a heck of lot more respect.

Mike
Mike
I'm constantly moved by how generous with their time and help so many of you guys are out there. Now more very useful stuff from you and I've now got a "whole bunch" (as you say) of very helpful information. Thanks to all of you.

Mike, do your earlier instructions add anything or are they significantly different in any important way? If so, any chance of a scan?

With what you now say about the paint I think you're right - the prop driver also has a dab of paint on it so that the prop goes back onto the same dimples after removal - not sure why though - so I suspect an earlier owner was the painter. When I run the engine (just making up a new test stand for it) I'll know better - then I may have more questions!

I think I've had equal numbers of people (including some guys I met at our club's scale day yesterday) recommending either "standard" oil fuel or "low" oil fuel for big STs.

In the UK ST engines have always been imported by a company called "Tigre Engines" and up until his recent retirement, this company was run by Mick Wilshere - he has always been considered the ST "Guru" in the UK. I believe he has always recommended the low oil route and indeed one fuel company here sells a fuel called "Tigre Big Brute contains 6˝% E.D.L. and 4˝% castor oil and was specially formulated with Mick Wilshere for use with Super Tigre 2000 engines and above". I believe this fuel has no or very low, nitro.

So there we are - lots of different advice, I'll just have to see how my engine runs. I agree, who wants yet another fuel to buy and carry around if there are no risks and no great advantage.

Your tip about starting is much appreciated - that must be a shock (or worse) when an engine starts just on the prime I wonder why? - could it be because you guys in the US (I think) seem to use much higher nitro contents than we generally do here? Whatever, its a big engine and a big prop (well to me it is) and I'll be mindful of your caution - thanks.

Malcolm
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Old Oct 19, 2010, 04:27 PM
North Simcoe Flyers
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Midland, Ontario, Canada
Joined May 2007
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Glad I found this thread. I have a ST2500 on it's way and found the tips here to be very helpful and comforting on the decision to purchase it. Heard many different opinions but am convinced these engines can be made to run well with some patience. I have had great luck with some of the smaller Tigres...Chinese and Italian built...so hope the 2500 runs as good.

Thanks guys!
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Old Oct 20, 2010, 03:46 AM
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Northiam, East Sussex, UK
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HI RC Wings
Glad you found this of some help, these guys know their stuff and as you can see are very generous with their time and advice - real gentlemen!
I decided to sell my ST 25cc, not becasue theres anything wrong with it - indeed I did run it on my test bench after the above advice and it seemed to run OK although the idle to full power transition was a little hesitatant.
But I prefer four strokes and in particular the English Laser engines, which are works of art, easy to operate an very reliable - and with a lovely exhaust note that suits the slower, larger planes I like.
Anyway good luck with yours.
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Old Oct 20, 2010, 10:16 AM
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Midland, Ontario, Canada
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Malcolm,

Thanks for the reply and sorry to hear you sold the Tiger. Hopefully I can get mine to run good. Have heard good things about the Laser engines. They are not very common here in Canada, so have never seen or heard one run.

Take care,
Marko
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Old Oct 20, 2010, 07:05 PM
TigreJohn
United States, CA, Corona
Joined Aug 2008
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Every so often, this situation regarding how to tune the ST Mag carb comes up and then some old-timer pipes up and explains it. This is my turn; I've been flying Tigres since 1975.

ST used to explain how to tune mid-range and transition on their carbs in the instructions but now they don't. There is a blurb in the FAQ of their website but it is incomplete.

If the engine is NIB, skip the next step. If the engine is used and not operating correctly, remove the carb and rotate the brass spraybar so the "cats-eye" is pointing straight down the barrel. Reinstall carb. Now start the engine, warm it up, and set the high speed mixture to optimum (don't then back off the needle which you normally do for flying). Now get your low speed idle and mixture set. I used the fuel line pinch test to validate this setting (as a just in case you didn't reset the spraybar correctly) rather than using the transition to high speed as the determining factor. Now go to half throttle, use the fuel line pinch test to determine if your mixture is right on, rich, or lean.

If it needs it, you rotate the spraybar to adjust mid-range mixture, about 5 degrees at a time. You raise the fuel nipple UP a bit to lean the mixture, or DOWN to richen the mixture (this is the part they dropped from the instructions. The website says rotate the spraybar but they don't say which way). Have fun and enjoy.
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