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Old May 31, 2010, 11:12 AM
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:20 AM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,546 Posts
It looks as though the Israelis were unprepared for resistance to their intercepting the vessel. I suppose they expected to be able to do so unopposed in internatiol waters. Self defence for Israel or an act of self-defence to piracy?
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:21 AM
Registered User
peterp1964's Avatar
Joined Oct 2005
659 Posts
Netanyahu's Israel is in good company with North Korea and the Somali
pirates.

The religious freaks in Israel have been colluding with the Russian emigres
to turn Israel into a pariah.
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:31 AM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2004
831 Posts
If you watch the videos, you can clearly see a soldier getting whacked by a "civilian" with a 3-4 foot long crowbar several times. I would say that the soldier exercised restraint, albeit I imagine that guy wielding the crowbar has since had a round placed through the chest.

BTW, Turkish PM says it was "state sponsored terrorism," the supply ships were Turkish. Can't wait to see the weapons that were headed to Gaza once the ships have been searched. Well, I can't say that for certain. I'm sure those supply ships had ample warning to turn around. Gaza was under blockade, Turkey was looking for a fight. I don't think we have an airbase in Turkey anymore either, we got kicked out. OY VEY....
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:34 AM
The original Flying Pigs Sqd.
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Netanya, Israel
Joined Aug 2002
10,066 Posts
Ok, let me see if I can get this straight:

- Hamas is a recognised terror organisation, with it's aim the anihilation of Israel. They refuse any form of negotiations
- Egypt enforces a full blockade on all goods & persons, frequently opening fire and killing civilians.
- Israel enforces a blockade on all goods that can be used to build bunkers and arms. All food, water, medicine and other humanitarian aid is let through. Ill people are crossing regularly and on a daily basis to get medical treatment in Israel
- IHH, the organisation that arranged the maritime convoy, is a subdivision of Hamas
- The supposed reason for the convoy was "to deliver humanitarian aid" to Gaza in a "peaceful manner"
- When Israel offered for the convoy to dock in Israeli ports and transport the humanitarian aid to Gaza, the offer was declined because the main aim of the convoy was to break the blockade (and not delivering humanitarian aid apparently)
- When approaching the Israeli coastal waters the convoy was hailed by radio to change course or suffer the consequences.
- The "peaceful" pro-palestinian people on board the ships were armed with lead pipes, knives, and handguns (hmm, peaceful?)
- As they had been warned, and refused to change course, they were boarded by Israeli Navy commandos.
- When the commandos boarded they were attacked with said lead pipes, knives, and handguns. Now, this may come as a surprise, but if you attack soldiers, they generally fight back (unless maybe if they're french?) with the means at hand.

So, in short, terrorists try to enter Gaza illegaly, Israel stops them, the terrorists attack Israeli soldiers, Israeli soldiers fight back, some terrorists get killed.

Did I miss anything?
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:44 AM
The original Flying Pigs Sqd.
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Netanya, Israel
Joined Aug 2002
10,066 Posts
Some more details:
Quote:
Israeli Navy commandoes fell right into the hands of the Gaza mission members. A few minutes before the takeover attempt aboard the Marmara got underway, the operation commander was told that 20 people were waiting on the deck where a helicopter was to deploy the first team of the elite Flotilla 13 unit. The original plan was to disembark on the top deck, and from there rush to the vessel’s bridge and order the Marmara’s captain to stop.

Officials estimated that passengers will show slight resistance, and possibly minor violence; for that reason, the operation’s commander decided to bring the helicopter directly above the top deck. The first rope that soldiers used in order to descend down to the ship was wrested away by activists, most of them Turks, and tied to an antenna with the hopes of bringing the chopper down. However, Flotilla 13 fighters decided to carry on.

Navy commandoes slid down to the vessel one by one, yet then the unexpected occurred: The passengers that awaited them on the deck pulled out bats, clubs, and slingshots with glass marbles, assaulting each soldier as he disembarked. The fighters were nabbed one by one and were beaten up badly, yet they attempted to fight back.

However, to their misfortune, they were only equipped with paintball rifles used to disperse minor protests, such as the ones held in Bilin. The paintballs obviously made no impression on the activists, who kept on beating the troops up and even attempted to wrest away their weapons.

One soldier who came to the aid of a comrade was captured by the rioters and sustained severe blows. The commandoes were equipped with handguns but were told they should only use them in the face of life-threatening situations. When they came down from the chopper, they kept on shouting to each other “don’t shoot, don’t shoot,” even though they sustained numerous blows.

‘I saw the tip of a rifle’

The Navy commandoes were prepared to mostly encounter political activists seeking to hold a protest, rather than trained street fighters. The soldiers were told they were to verbally convince activists who offer resistance to give up, and only then use paintballs. They were permitted to use their handguns only under extreme circumstances.

The planned rush towards the vessel’s bridge became impossible, even when a second chopper was brought in with another crew of soldiers. “Throw stun grenades,” shouted Flotilla 13’s commander who monitored the operation. The Navy chief was not too far, on board a speedboat belonging to Flotilla 13, along with forces who attempted to climb into the back of the ship.

The forces hurled stun grenades, yet the rioters on the top deck, whose number swelled up to 30 by that time, kept on beating up about 30 commandoes who kept gliding their way one by one from the helicopter. At one point, the attackers nabbed one commando, wrested away his handgun, and threw him down from the top deck to the lower deck, 30 feet below. The soldier sustained a serious head wound and lost his consciousness.

Only after this injury did Flotilla 13 troops ask for permission to use live fire. The commander approved it: You can go ahead and fire. The soldiers pulled out their handguns and started shooting at the rioters’ legs, a move that ultimately neutralized them. Meanwhile, the rioters started to fire back at the commandoes.

“I saw the tip of a rifle sticking out of the stairwell,” one commando said. “He fired at us and we fired back. We didn’t see if we hit him. We looked for him later but couldn’t find him.” Two soldiers sustained gunshot wounds to their knee and stomach after rioters apparently fired at them using guns wrested away from troops.

During the commotion, another commando was stabbed with a knife. In a later search aboard the Marmara, soldiers found caches of bats, clubs, knives, and slingshots used by the rioters ahead of the IDF takeover. It appeared the activists were well prepared for a fight.

Some passengers on the ship stood at the back and pounded the soldiers’ hands as they attempted to climb on board. Only after a 30-minute shootout and brutal assaults using clubs and knifes did commandoes manage to reach the bridge and take over the Marmara.

It appears that the error in planning the operation was the estimate that passengers were indeed political activists and members of humanitarian groups who seek a political provocation, but would not resort to brutal violence. The soldiers thought they will encounter Bilin-style violence; instead, they got Bangkok. The forces that disembarked from the helicopters were few; just dozens of troops – not enough to contend with the large group awaiting them.

The second error was that commanders did not address seriously enough the fact that a group of men were expecting the soldiers on the top deck. Had they addressed this more seriously, they may have hurled tear-gas grenades and smoke grenades from the helicopter to create a screen that would have enabled them to carry out their mission, without the fighters falling right into the hands of the rioters, who severely assaulted them.
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Old May 31, 2010, 11:57 AM
St. Boondock
FL Knifemaker's Avatar
Joined Aug 2008
731 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterp1964 View Post
Netanyahu's Israel is in good company with North Korea and the Somali
pirates.

The religious freaks in Israel have been colluding with the Russian emigres
to turn Israel into a pariah.
Did you read that on The Twilight Zone website...
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:02 PM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2000
1,411 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Up&Away View Post
Ok, let me see if I can get this straight:

- Hamas is a recognised terror organisation, with it's aim the anihilation of Israel. They refuse any form of negotiations
- Egypt enforces a full blockade on all goods & persons, frequently opening fire and killing civilians.
- Israel enforces a blockade on all goods that can be used to build bunkers and arms. All food, water, medicine and other humanitarian aid is let through. Ill people are crossing regularly and on a daily basis to get medical treatment in Israel
- IHH, the organisation that arranged the maritime convoy, is a subdivision of Hamas
- The supposed reason for the convoy was "to deliver humanitarian aid" to Gaza in a "peaceful manner"
- When Israel offered for the convoy to dock in Israeli ports and transport the humanitarian aid to Gaza, the offer was declined because the main aim of the convoy was to break the blockade (and not delivering humanitarian aid apparently)
- When approaching the Israeli coastal waters the convoy was hailed by radio to change course or suffer the consequences.
- The "peaceful" pro-palestinian people on board the ships were armed with lead pipes, knives, and handguns (hmm, peaceful?)
- As they had been warned, and refused to change course, they were boarded by Israeli Navy commandos.
- When the commandos boarded they were attacked with said lead pipes, knives, and handguns. Now, this may come as a surprise, but if you attack soldiers, they generally fight back (unless maybe if they're french?) with the means at hand.

So, in short, terrorists try to enter Gaza illegaly, Israel stops them, the terrorists attack Israeli soldiers, Israeli soldiers fight back, some terrorists get killed.

Did I miss anything?
Errr... that they were in International waters... or does Israel own all of them as well?

P.S. And NO, I don't support the fact that the flotilla was plainly trying to stir up things - but does that justify 15 dead?
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:17 PM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
This won't be good for Israel as the UN Israel-haters pile on to condemn and sanction them, and no doubt Obama will do the same, but the bottom line is that Israel has the right to self-defense and preventing weapons from entering Gaza is a key element of that effort.

If you attack armed men be prepared for the consequences.
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:22 PM
Registered User
Joined Aug 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot 48 View Post
...no doubt Obama will do the same...
I doubt that actually.
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:27 PM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2000
1,411 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Foot 48 View Post
This won't be good for Israel as the UN Israel-haters pile on to condemn and sanction them, and no doubt Obama will do the same, but the bottom line is that Israel has the right to self-defense and preventing weapons from entering Gaza is a key element of that effort.

If you attack armed men (who are trying to board your boat whilst in International waters) be prepared for the consequences.
Thought you missed out a bit that needed correction...

(I'm always amazed at how when someone goes out and attacks someone else it's always defence!?! I must misunderstand what the words actually mean... or maybe we can remove the word 'attack' from the dictionary as it's obviously not needed!

You know "Dog defends itself by biting year old baby to death".. sounds about right! )
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:31 PM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,546 Posts
Some months back there was a similar incident on a vessel bound for Gaza from Cyprus (?), which the Israeli government insisted was carrying weapons. I do not recall any follow up to that story concerning what weapons the IDF eventually discovered.
The fact is that intercepting a vessel in international waters gives the crew a right to self-defence, as we have seen in Somalia. The vessel was carrying a Turkish flag, the charity chartering the vessel was a semi-official Turkish government sponsored organisation and Turkey one of the few remaining friends of Jerusalem in the area. It would, in hindsight, appear to be a very risky action.
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:32 PM
did a reversed Immelman..once.
SKYPILEIT's Avatar
Novi, Michigan
Joined Nov 2002
2,251 Posts
Netanyahu cancels upcoming meeting with Obama

The division between Israel & the Obama administration widens..

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/31/net...ex.html?hpt=T1
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:35 PM
E-flyer since 1981
Michael in Toronto's Avatar
Joined Oct 2000
1,495 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterp1964 View Post
Netanyahu's Israel is in good company with North Korea and the Somali pirates.

Pirates ?

You take liberties with your opinions.
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Old May 31, 2010, 12:36 PM
Alarm Bells Continuing!
Big Foot 48's Avatar
Arizona
Joined Oct 2001
276 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Adlam View Post
Thought you missed out a bit that needed correction...
Since when did being in international waters protect smugglers, pirates, and criminals from the actions of nations to protect themselves? I think you're ignoring about 1,000 years of human history.

For example, if the US intercepts a North Korean ship delivering a nuclear weapon to Iran, I expect them to stop the ship, board it, and deal with any resistance in an appropriate manner, wherever that ship might be found.
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