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Old Jun 13, 2003, 05:56 PM
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Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12
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hey , but now you are stuck with a 3s4p if it dont work , I tried the 3s4p in my logo with the 36.30.1.5 last week and it had a flyable headspeed but the motor and esc after 5 minutes got up to 180 degrees , the 4s4 pack puts out the same a 13 cells with weight of 10 cell nicd pack , I went ahed and ordered a motor that almost everyone is happy with to go with my 4s4p pack Tony
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 06:15 PM
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South Orange County, CA
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I too experienced high heat with the 36/30/1.5 but the 36/30/2 is cool as a cucumber. The reason, I believe is the current rating on the /1.5 is 3.9A while the /2 is 2.2A which is closer to the B50-13L's 1.5A. What that means is no matter what you do the /1.5 is not going to run as efficiently as the /2 and the 13L, which translates into more heat, even at the lower voltage that you tried. No matter what I do the /2 runs cool to the touch.

It has a much lower KV than the Hacker so it should "like" the higher voltage of the 5s packs and since watts is watts, higher voltage means lower current and that is much better for the E-Techs.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 07:05 PM
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Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12
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hey

yeh , I see your point , high voltage higher rpm like the 36 30 1.5 , and still the batteries will weigh as much as a 12 or 3 cell pack , the TP that is . you will like the thunder power batteries Tony
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GGoodrum
\matter what you do the /1.5 is not going to run as efficiently as the /2 and the 13L, which translates into more heat, even at the lower voltage that you tried. No matter what I do the /2 runs cool to the touch.

\

-- Gary
I believe the actual issue is that one setup is running at higher dutycycle (closer to full throttle) than the other setup. A few% difference in throttle can mean a 10-20% reduction in efficiency which means more heat in both the motor and controller.

I ran a bunch of tests on the dyno with different throttle settings and the difference between 100% rpm and 70 % rpm was more then a 20% reduction in efficiency.

I would bet that if you put a smaller pinion gear on the 36/30/1.5 and ran it close to the 90% rpm/throttle setting that the heating would be less.

Steve
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 09:29 PM
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Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12
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13 is the smallest you can go
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 11:56 PM
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I agree, a smaller pinion would help, but as misskimo points out, 13T is as small as you can go on a Logo 10.

I'm still of the opinion that the /1.5 is just not going to run as efficiently, no matter what you do to optimize it. Using that logic, you'd expect it to run cooler at the lower voltage that a 3s pack puts out, because you can gear it closer to "optimum" but misskimo's tests showed it still ran extremely hot.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 14, 2003, 12:25 AM
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I think the motor didnt get hot , the esc got over 180 , Im glad it didnt shut down , it ran fine on the 12 2400s though , just 5 minute flight times suck, then lipos really spoiled the hell out of me , Thanks Charlie
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Old Jun 14, 2003, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GGoodrum
I agree, a smaller pinion would help, but as misskimo points out, 13T is as small as you can go on a Logo 10.

I'm still of the opinion that the /1.5 is just not going to run as efficiently, no matter what you do to optimize it. Using that logic, you'd expect it to run cooler at the lower voltage that a 3s pack puts out, because you can gear it closer to "optimum" but misskimo's tests showed it still ran extremely hot.

-- Gary
A couple other things that come to mind here--Aveox motors are most efficient when operated with the least advance setting in the controller. A lower advance setting will let you run a bit more throttle to get the same head speed.

Aveox as a special order can supply the motor with a 1/8 output shaft of the 36/30/1.5. The pinions from the ECO8 will then fit which have the same pitch as the Logo 10. You could do this change if you really want to use the low resistance motor---but it might not be worth the trouble. One other option would be the 27/39/2 motor with a KV of about 1550. Aveox has a adapter plate to let you run it in the Logo---you have to use the ECO pinions for the 1/8 shaft. The 12/39/2 is long and thin with more surface area for cooling. The noload current is quite low at just over 1 amp--might be a good one to test.

The /1.5 is not as efficient at lower currrents as the /2 motor--but at higher currents the reverse is true. The crossover is at around 35-40 amps --well above the normal flight range for most heli operation.

Steve
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Old Jun 14, 2003, 10:50 AM
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Thanks for the info Steve. That is interesting to know about the Eco 8 using the same pitch pinions but with a 1/8" shaft. You've also helped me start to "fill in the gaps" in my limited knowlege of brushless motor efficiencies! I'll also take a look at the 27/39/2.

The E-Techs certainly don't like the higher amps and although the TPs should handle it better, I think both will work better at higher voltage and lower current. I reconfigured a bunch of cells last night so that I can try both 5s5p and 5s6p with the /2. They are charging now but should be ready to go this afternoon.

I have a 13T and a 14T but I'm thinking that the 14T might be too much for the E-Techs, especially in the 5p configuration. I would think the 5s4p TPs won't have a problem with either.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 15, 2003, 10:30 AM
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I finally got this going yesterday but the tests were short-lived. After just about 2-3 minutes the pinion came loose and I ended up stripping the main gear. I did get some data, however. The headspeed was way up! My tach showed 1890 rpm. I used the IDLE1 this time, which was set to 80%, so that I could get an "unloaded" reading at about half stick. The wattmeter at this setting showed 465W and 25.1 amps.

Switching back to NORMAL and advancing the throttle past the middle caused the motor to bog down. The meter went up to about 530W/30.3A at a point just below where it started bogging down. Oddly, the readings went to 630W but only 17.8A when I pushed it. Holding it there for a few seconds caused the pack to start to shut down. I cut power at that point, waited a few seconds and tried running it up again but the pinion was slipping. It had come loose and slid upwards. Somehow this had managed to grind down about the top 1/4 of the main gear.

I checked the temps at this point and both the motor and the cells were at 98 and the ESC was at 108 but I was only running for a couple of minutes.

I replaced the main gear last night and reset the pinion (more Loctite!). Today I will try to repeat yesterday's test but this time I'll try Steve's suggestion and go with the lower timing option. I want to see what the temps do after a longer run and I want to verify whether or not I'll still get a pack shutdown if I push it hard. Assuming I still get a shutdown at some point I'll then switch and try the 5s6p configuration.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 15, 2003, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by GGoodrum
My tach showed 1890 rpm. I used the IDLE1 this time, which was set to 80%, so that I could get an "unloaded" reading at about half stick. The wattmeter at this setting showed 465W and 25.1 amps.

Switching back to NORMAL and advancing the throttle past the middle caused the motor to bog down. The meter went up to about 530W/30.3A at a point just below where it started bogging down. Oddly, the readings went to 630W but only 17.8A when I pushed it. Holding it there for a few seconds caused the pack to start to shut down.
-- Gary
Hi Gary,

I've enjoyed reading about your experiments and give you lots of credit for trying to find an alternative to the norm. I've quoted you above on a couple of areas that are confusing to me. Are you using governor mode? In your normal mode, is this still a straight line throttle curve like you mentioned earlier? What does your pitch curve look like, in degrees?

I'm thinking if you have a straight line throttle curve this might be part of why you're not getting the results you're looking for. I haven't any idea how you could get more watts at a lower current draw though?
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Old Jun 15, 2003, 01:41 PM
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I lost the governor mode when I fried both Phoenix 45s. The Hacker/Jeti 06-70P ESC I'm using now doesn't have a governor mode. If I could ever get Patrick at Castle Creations to return my calls (he's evidently VERY busy at the moment...) and I can run the UBEC problem past him, I might try another one. I just don't want to waste another $100 if I'm just going to fry another one. I now have an Aveox controller that does have a "Heli" mode that will automatically switch into a governor mode (if you set a switch first...) after a few seconds, so I'll probably give that a try later, after I complete all these tests, including using the new TP pack (actually a 3s4p and a 2s4p...) which I should get early next week.

Mechanically, I have the pitch setup for +/- 10 (or is it 11?) degrees, per the instructions. The radio curve is "untouched" at 0, 25, 50, 75, 100. The Swashplate/Pitch menu is at 80%, I think. For yesterday's test I had the Throttle curve (NORMAL mode) set at 0, 25, 50, 75, 90.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 16, 2003, 01:53 AM
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Mississippi 31 years , Now Kotzebue , Alaska 12
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hey , well my other MOTOR is in , the kontronics 600 17 , should work out fine with the 4s4p pack or my 2 13 cell 2400s , 15 t pinion , soon Ill test Tony
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Old Jun 16, 2003, 04:26 AM
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The tests today went well. No real problems. I changed the timing, per Steve's recommendation, and it seemed to make positive difference. Using the 5s5p pack, I ran it up to full stick many times during a ten minute test and I never got a pack shutdown or cutoff of any kind. I got lots of vibration at full pitch/full power, as the poor beast felt like it wanted to blast off but no cutoff. Headspeed at hover power was a respectable 1710 after ten minutes (1780 at the beginning...).

At half stick, with the NORMAL setting it ran at 275W/14.9A. Switching to the IDLE1 position (80%). it went oup to 371W/21.3A.. Just shy of full stick, it read 489W/29.6A.. That's as high as I could get it.

At the end of the ten minutes, the pack was 101, the motor was 114 and the ESC was 101.

More later...

-- Gary
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Old Jun 18, 2003, 02:27 PM
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I seem to have 2 threads going, one here and one on Glen's excellent Logo site (http://www.logoheli.com/LOGObb/viewt...hp?p=1674#1674), so I won't waste bandwidth and post the same thing in both places. Bottomline: I was able to run tests on both the 5s5p and 5s6p packs at pretty much full throttle with no shutdowns. The 5s5p pack last about 11-1/2 minutes and the 5s6p about 16. This is with a 14T pinion and the throttle curve set to 0,20,40,60,80. Max wattmeter readout showed about 750w, 46A and 15.75V, which came about 7-1/2 minutes on the 5s6p pack. At the end of the 16 minute 5s6p test temps were - cells: 148, motor: 122 and ESC: 98.

My TP packs (5s4p 7800 mAh...) came yesterday so I'm anxious to try these today to see how they compare.

-- Gary
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