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Old Jun 12, 2003, 03:35 AM
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South Orange County, CA
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Logo 10, Aveox 36/30/2 and 4s6ps E-Techs, some numbers...

In my quest to find alternatives to Hackers and Thunder Power packs for use in a Logo 10, I've been trying different combinations of Aveox 36/30 motors and E-Tech 1200-based packs. The "common" Logo 10 configuration for TP packs seems to be 4s4p but since they use bigger cells (1950 vs 1200 mAh...) the E-Tech packs need to use more cells to have the equivalent "surge" capacity.

Anyway, I first tried a 13T pinion and an Aveox 36/30/1.5, which has a KV of 1980 (roughly equal to a B50-13L...) but it ran way too hot and I had a brief pack shutdown, indicating it was probably pulling in excess of 60 amps (in the middle of a hard turn...). Two heatsinks and a fan didn't help so I swapped the /1.5 out and put in a 36/30/2 (KV = 1460) and a 17T pinion. Initially, I couldn't get my Phoenix 45 to work with it. The motor would just "twitch" or "single step", no matter how I changed the settings in the PH 45. It finally burned itself up. I bought a second one but it did the same thing.

After frying my second Phoenix 45 (still not sure why these won't work with the Aveox motors. I tried changing everything I could but all it would do is "single step" until the controller starting smoking...), I decided to try the "brute force" method and got a Hacker/Jeti 06-70P. Although it doesn't have a governor mode, it has worked flawlessly since I first hooked it up.

Anyway, I clamped the Logo down to a concrete patio counter and hooked up the wattmeter. Initially I tried the 36/30/2, which has a KV of 1460, with a 17T pinion. I just used a "norma" throttle curve (0, 25, 50, 75, 100).

I started "easy" and checked everything at about mid-stick. This should be close to what it takes to hover. At this point the readout showed around 275-280 watts and it was drawing 21.5-22.6 amps and the tach showed 1290 rpm. At about 2/3 the watts went up to 337 and the current 27.4 amps. It maxed out at about 3/4 with 478 watts/42.7 amps and 1510 rpm. Full stick (with full pitch...) actually slowed the H/S a bit.

To test the temps I ran for about ten minutes, mostly at mid-stick, but every minute or so I'd run it up to 3/4-max for 10-20 seconds. At the end the motor was a "cool" 98 degrees and the packs were at 105, not even warm to the touch. The "open" end of the ESC was the hottest at 115 degrees.

This setup, with a H/S of only 1510 would be considered "mild" by most so tomorrow I'm going to try an 18T pinion to see what it does to the numbers. Next will be a test using a 5s5p configuration (E-Tech 1200s...) and a 13T pinion. I don't know if anybody has tried the equivalent of 16 NiCd cells before in a Logo 10. I guess it is because of the weight penalty but with LiPos this isn't a problem as a 25 cell pack only weighs about 1-1/2 pounds, about the same as a 10-cell NiCd/NiMH pack. I'm really anxious to see how much less current it will draw for the same number of watts. This will probably be my "final" setup, although I don't know about the optimum pinion yet. Anyway, it should have oodles of power and run very cool. I may not even need the fan and the heatsinks, which are shown in a couple of pics below.

-- Gary





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Old Jun 12, 2003, 10:01 AM
E-Heli
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Palm Bay FL
Joined Mar 2003
293 Posts
Good post, I like these Lipo posts.
Everytime I read about them, it makes me want to go out and spend $260 on batteries and another $120 on a charger
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Old Jun 12, 2003, 12:08 PM
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Good information! Thanks for sharing with us Gary.

Did you make that UBEC/fan mount? Looks cool!

Stephen
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Old Jun 12, 2003, 01:18 PM
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South Orange County, CA
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No the mount is just the "Logo Aluminum Electronics Mount" that I found on the HeliHobby Logo page. It got a little bent in the last crash so I bent it a liitle more and then just Shoe Goo'd the fan to it.

As soon as I get the gearing/cell count issue settled, I'm going to have to re-build this beast using the new spare side frames and landing struts I have had saved. Until the parts supply issue gets resovled (Aero-Model is taking over the Mikado distributership...) I decided to hold off replacing anything I can fix reasonably well but right now this thing has got more "bondo" (Kevlar thread and black CA...) than an East LA lowridder! It's also leaning to the left a little more than Hillory Clinton, and that's just not good. I'd much prefer a Rush Limbaugh "look" if it can't be in the middle of the road, where it belongs.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 12, 2003, 09:33 PM
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United States, NV, Las Vegas
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Im curious...

What is the benefit of running the ETecs over the Thunder Power cells?

A 4s4p Thunder Power pack has 7800 mah and weighs less than 22 ounces. Cost is $259, completely assembled, ready to charge and fly. Using a Hacker B50-13L motor the power and flight times are excellent.

A 5s5p ETec pack would weigh nearly the same as the above, yet only have 6000 mah and cost closer to $350. Not to mention, youd have to spend a few hours assembling the pack. Granted, you have a tad more voltage for the same weight, but you could achieve the same results using a 5s3p Thunder Power pack that would weigh less (19 ounces, 5800 mah), and cost considerably less too (Right around $250) than the 5s5p ETec option, AND come prebuilt.

Also, a good note is that the ETec 1200s still do not provide the same level of power as the Thunder Power cells. Under load, the ETec voltage is lower than Thunder Power cells at the same current draws...even current draws in the 20-30 amps range.

As for Hacker vs Aveox...I think its not a bad idea to run an Aveox motor at all! They do have excellent service and theyre right in your neck of the woods. I personally have a few of the newer Aveox motors in my planks and have nothing but excellent results and performance at a cost slightly lower than compareable Hackers.

Though I must admit I have Hackers in all my e-helis

Im just curious why youd choose the ETec route when the numbers for the Thunder Power cells are so much better for your application not only in performance, but in cost and ease as well?

Jason
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Old Jun 12, 2003, 10:57 PM
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South Orange County, CA
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I never said there was a big benefit, other than they are much more readily available from a variety of sources. What if you have a crash and need to replace a few cells in a pack (this has happened to me as recently as my last crash...). My local hobby shop carries E-Techs, if I'm in a real hurry, or I can get them from a variety of online sources in a day, if I'm not. While I applaud Charlie Wang's support to the RC world, and I truly believe he will do well, the fact of the matter is that unless you have a "special" connection, like you or Gary Wright or Fred or whoever, these things are anythng but "readily available", which I define as my being able to call somebody or go to a website and being able to get what I need in a day or two (my wife says I'm the poster child for impulse buyers so that probably has a lot to do with it...). From what I understand of the current acquisition procedure for TPs, you send Charlie an email, telling him what you want. He then responds, at some point, and tells you the price and tells you where to send a check, am I right? Maybe he does PayPal, but I don't know. Anyway, at some point in the TBD future you get the packs in the mail. Sorry, but that is not even close to passing my availability test.

Actually, the main reason I'm doing it is more to get a better understanding of the limits of LiPos in general, and E-Techs in particular. I understand that the TP's are based on larger cells but that will change soon enough when the E-Tech 2000s and 3000s are "readily available". What I want to do simply is find what works and what doesn't (I'm getting lots of data in this area...). In any case, I'm certainly learning a lot. Maybe that will help others, maybe not. To me, having more data is better than less. Am I wrong?

As for why Aveox, that again was born out of my frustration of not being able to get the "right" Hacker motor a few weeks back, from anyone in North America. That just pissed me off and that's when I found these guys, right in my own "backyard". They've been very helpful and have easily satisfied my need for immediacy. Both motors came about 19 hours after I ordered them.

Anyway, enough of this. I need to go try the 2nd test, which is the same /2 and 4s6p configuration but with an 18T pinion. If I don't run into too many problems, I hope to try the 5s5p configuration with a 13T pinion tonight as well.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 12:14 AM
17 years on RCG!
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Actually Gary, I think all the data is great!

I was just curious, thats all

The Thunder Power product line has in fact been under heavy development over the past few months, but the end goal is to deliver packs to local hobby shops so you can simply walk in and buy them just about anywhere...just as your local shop and ETecs. Of course there is a lot of planning and development in such an endeavor...most guys wont walk in and plunk $259 for a 4s4p pack today....but maybe they will a year from now. It all comes in time...

Dont worry, I feel much the same as you. Im one of the worst impulse buyers around and it drives me nuts at times

Good luck with the testing!

Jason
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 03:48 AM
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Thanks Jason. I'm glad to hear that the "end game" will be to have them widely available. I will explore getting a pack tomorrow after I verify the configuration that will work best with this motor.

The 18T test was a bust. Headspeed did increase about 100 RPM but at full power it was at 630W and 54.1 amps and at that it would only stay for a few seconds before the packs would start to shutdown. That's similar to what I saw with the /1.5 so that won't "fly". If I've done the math right, I should get similar headspeed with the 5s5p configuration but it should max out at about 35-40 amps, something the E-Techs should be able to handle.

For the TPs, I understand that 5s3p would likely work fine but I'll probably go for a 5s4p configuration to get the extra duration.

I have a question, however. How big are the TP cells/packs in comparison to the E-Techs?

-- Gary
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 09:47 AM
ElektroRC.com - MSH,LAHeli,YGE
Pewaukee, WI, USA
Joined Mar 2002
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Gary,

FYI: If you crash and break a TP pack, you can always send it back to Charlie for repair. Please don't ask how I know this When I talked with him, he said he was planning on a repair service... I never bother emailing Charlie, phone works best. No, you can't drive down the street to have it done, but then, I keep a 2nd pack, kinda like spare parts, but I fly it too. More expensive, but no downtime worry.

TP cells are definitely wider. If I recall the TP's are 49mm wide and a 4s4p pack is about the same length as a 12 cell shotgun pack, and a hair taller.

-P
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 03:00 PM
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>>From what I understand of the current acquisition procedure for TPs, you send Charlie an email, telling him what you want. He then responds, at some point, and tells you the price and tells you where to send a check, am I right? Maybe he does PayPal, but I don't know. Anyway, at some point in the TBD future you get the packs in the mail. Sorry, but that is not even close to passing my availability test.<<

Gary, that is exactly the same feeling I have about Thunder Power packs. I emailed Charlie and was told the price and send a check. If Charlie had taken Paypal I would have purchased the packs right away but for me to make out a check, stick it in the envelope, go down to the post office to mail the envelope with tracking number is just too involved for my busy work day.
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 05:41 PM
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Gary, that is exactly the same feeling I have about Thunder Power packs. I emailed Charlie and was told the price and send a check. If Charlie had taken Paypal I would have purchased the packs right away but for me to make out a check, stick it in the envelope, go down to the post office to mail the envelope with tracking number is just too involved for my busy work day.



hey , well if you want the best then its not to much trouble , its proven , he backs his product , its ready to run or charge

and thats what internet banking is for .
Tony
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 06:29 PM
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South Orange County, CA
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I decided to go ahead and order set from Charlie, in order to continue my tests. For charging purposes, I got a 3s4p and a 2s4p and will put them in series. Total cost with shipping was $343 so that's quite a bit more than the $259 for a 4s4p pack but the rough equivalent mAh in ready-made E-Techs would be about $50 more. Actually, right now I have about 75 E-Tech cells, in various configurations, so I'm not planning on buying a bunch more right now.

Anyway, it'll be interesting to see how close the E-Techs can come to the "proven" TP packs' performance.

-- Gary
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 06:44 PM
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>>I decided to go ahead and order set from Charlie, in order to continue my tests. <<

I just sent an email to Charlie so I can purchase some TP packs also.

>>Actually, right now I have about 75 E-Tech cells,<<

I get close to 60. ;-)
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 06:48 PM
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hey , the 4s4p would have been perfic for the logo 10
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Old Jun 13, 2003, 06:51 PM
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I think the 5s4p will work better, at least with this motor. We'll see.
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