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Old May 03, 2010, 03:12 PM
Sherman Knight
Kirkland Washington
Joined Feb 2002
770 Posts
New Product
JR's New 11x

Sport Fans,

I recently received an advance copy of the manual for the new 11x and spent several hours looking it over. It has some very cool new features when compared to the 9303. Look for a comparison of the 9303 and the 11x on Thursday. I fly mostly Thermal Duration, so my comparison will only involve the Sailplane programming.

The comparison is based upon the manuals so I won’t be able to dive into deeper detail until I get my hands on a transmitter. Hopefully, within a month or so.

This will only be a comparison between the 9303 and the 11x. I won’t be discussing the merits of why JR chose a particular software solution or comparing JR’s software to other brands. Nor will I be discussing the merits of one brands 2.4 system over another; frankly, I am not that smart. Thank you for not using this thread to start or respond to any flame war.

I will try to respond to software questions concerning the 11x once a week or so. But, until I get my hands on a working transmitter and have a chance to program several models, my answers will be brief. I am planning to write a guide to programming the 11x similar to the one I did for the 9303. I have a busy spring and summer schedule because of the upcoming F3J Worlds in France, so a full version may not be available until late summer or early fall.

Just remember, flexibility breeds complexity and the 11x contains much of the flexibility requested by the RC community. As an example, each of the five flight modes in the 9303 were given a fixed name. If you are fine with the default names, perfect. If not, the 11x allows you to rename each of the flight modes. The ability to change the flight mode names increases flexibility, but adds another step to the programming process increasing complexity.

Until Thursday.

Sherman Knight
Team JR
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Old May 03, 2010, 04:54 PM
Will fly for food
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Bellevue WA,
Joined Dec 2003
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I'm planning on getting one of these so keep us posted. We need info from a trusted source.
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Old May 03, 2010, 09:48 PM
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United States, CA, Davis
Joined Oct 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duworm View Post
Sport Fans,

I recently received an advance copy of the manual for the new 11x and spent several hours looking it over. It has some very cool new features when compared to the 9303. ....
Folks, the Horizon website has the manual available on-line under the "Support" tab for the 11X transmitter entry in the RC Radios section. I have read it through already and it looks good. I have preordered an 11X and look forward to trying out the nice new features on my TD planes.
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Old May 04, 2010, 07:02 AM
Chuck 'Em and Chase 'Em
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United States, NY, Plainview
Joined Aug 2005
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Thanks Sherman. It is much appreciated. I know I refer back all the time to your directions/instructions on programming the 9303. no matter how often I might enter a new plane or change an old one, it is your instructions that I read before trying anything.

Thanks again

Sincerely,
Frank
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Old May 04, 2010, 07:20 AM
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Joined May 2003
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Jr11x

Thanks Sherman,

I have one on order.
I'll be watching.

Peterkim2
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Old May 05, 2010, 02:23 PM
Sherman Knight
Kirkland Washington
Joined Feb 2002
770 Posts
More on the 11x from Sherman Knight

The New JR 11X System with Spektrum 2.4Hz DSM Technology.

As many of you know, I am a huge fan of JR’s 9303. It has its shortcomings, but not many. Programming was not intuitive, but once you figured it out, it was manageable. Some complain that the 9303 switches were not assignable. That never bothered me. I spend a lot of time programming and trimming other club member’s planes. If each radio has a completely different assignment of switches, helping is gonna take more time. For me, functionability is all that matters.

This discussion assumes you have a working knowledge of the 9303. The new manual, in an effort to be short and direct, can be confusing. The manual also assumes (and rightly so) that you are familiar with some form of transmitter programming and understand the basic nomenclature of an aircraft and its flight control surfaces. The manual does not give you a cookbook approach to programming your aircraft. (I don’t know of any manufacture that does) There are just too many variables.

Keep in mind, there are 2 ways to use the 9303 and the 11x when it comes to programming. For those of you that have not used a 9303, this is important. The first programming method is unchanged from what we used prior to computer radios. Dual rates had a separate switch for elevator, rudder and ailerons. Other functions could be turned ON or OFF using a switch. Older radios used 4 switches. Remembering what switch did what and its current setting while flying was difficult. New radios have 8 switches! Now it is impossible to remember which switch does what or remember how it is set while flying. On top of that, you have to look down to find the right switch. You can still use the 11x in this manner, but what a waste of a really cool radio.

The second method is to use Flight Modes. By flipping a single switch you can modify a significant number of functions. An example would be transitioning from cruise mode to speed mode. A single switch could do the following; reduce aileron to rudder mix, reduce elevator sensitivity, reduce aileron sensitivity, reflex the ailerons and flaps, add a couple of clicks of down trim and so on. Just imagine how many switches you have to flip using the old method.

Now that you see the difference between controlling each dual rate function with a separate switch, (and the memory problems associate with that method) and flight modes controlling a multitude of functions with a single switch, you must decide which of the two methods you want to use. You cannot use them both. (to some degree you can, but it is a disaster waiting to happen.) Choose one or the other. The 11x (like the 9303) allows you to use either method. Short version, if you are not interested in flight modes, you can get all you need with a lesser radio.

The 11x’s new features listed below assume that you are using flight modes. After all, the reason you are thinking about buying this radio is because of the computer within.

I am mentioning this because of the screen shots that appear in the 11x manual. Some of the screen shots were taken when using the first system mentioned above and some of the screen shots are for programming flight modes. Rarely, does the manual show both screen shots for a particular function. For the individual new to programming one method or the other, it can be confusing.

New to the 11x, you will often see 1/2 or 1/3 in the upper right hand corner of a screen shot. This indicates that you are looking at page one of a multiple page programming section. This intelligent groping will make a big difference. The manual only shows a restricted selection of the available screen shots which makes it difficult to comment directly on usability.

Remember, flexibility breeds complexity. There is simply no way to avoid this catch-22 dilemma. The 11x, by providing screens with more intuitive names, screens with more usable information or intelligent grouping of screens, makes an effort at providing more flexibility and reducing complexity at the same time. From what I could see, this radio represents a huge step in the right direction.

Here are some of the new features:

1. Number of channels went from 9 on the 9303 to 11 on the 11x.
2. The gimbals on the 11x contain dual ball bearings.
3. The screen is backlit.
4. The 11x battery contains a heat detector. If it senses excessive heat, it shuts off the charger and shows an error on the charger LED. I don’t know if this system will work with non JR chargers.
5. Binding, SmartSafe, Preset Failsafe, range testing, Model Match and Instant Quick Connect are unchanged from the 9303.
6. The 11x has 8 switches, 7 of them are three position. It appears that all 8 switches are program selectable. I don’t know if functions are limited to certain switches but it appears there is very little restriction on choice. Remember, once you assign a function to a switch, you cannot use that switch for a second function. As you assign a switch to a particular function, a Servo Monitor function automatically renames the channel according to the assignments. For those of you new to programming, you need to figure out ahead of time, what function are going to be assigned to a particular switch.
7. The manual mentions momentary switches, but I believe this is available for the two trim switches up high in the center of the radio. I still need the radio to confirm, sorry handlaunch guys.
8. The number of timers increased from 2 to 3. All are adjustable with alarms, count up or down and multiple alarms for each timer.
9. New Quick Edit mode allows quick editing of sub-trims, travel adjust, D/R and Expo but I am not sure how this is going to work yet.
10. The function list will include a feature to turn RF on or off.
11. A new feature called MY LIST. This allows you to group functions from the System and Function list into MY LIST. This appears to allow you to place favorite function in an easy to find list or to eliminate functions you never use. Think of it this way, by eliminating function you never use, you are reducing flexibility but this results in a reduction of complexity. The 9303 contains many more function than we actually use. The 11x is the same. It would be cool to have a programming screen that only contains the functions you are using for your plane. Quicker and easier to navigate and no more, “I wonder what this does?”
12. The System List can be entered without having to hold down the enter button while turning the radio on. The system list contains new functions. They are copy/erase, flight mode naming, warning, tx settings, all servo hold, and stick alerts.
13. The Function List contains many new features. Some of them are explained below.
14. Like the 9303, 30 models can be saved in the base memory of the 11x. The 11x also allows you to store additional models on a SD card and copy or save to or from the SD card. This should allow easy transfer to your computer of any particular model program. In addition, the number of characters for naming each model has been increased from 8 to 16.
15. As with the 9303, there are 5 flight modes. The 11x allows you to rename the flight modes with a 6 character name of your choice. Monitor automatically renames the flight modes throughout the different radio setup screens.
16. You can adjust the voltage level that sets off the low battery alarm.
17. You can select a sound mode and volume for the edit button, trim, lever (switch) and opening volume. You can also set alarms for various purposes and an alarm to sound when a stick passes a certain point.
18. Dual rate and expo setting were limited to three in the 9303 which has been expanded to four in the 11x.
19. Launch/Cruise/Land flight modes can be assigned to any of the 8 switches. Thermal and reflex flight modes can be assigned to any of 6 switches.
20. For you motor heads, it appears that motor functions can be assigned to any of three output channels on the receiver (I think), and assigned to any of several switches, levers or throttle stick. In addition, the 11x allow you to use the throttle stick for dual purposes. A possible example is that the throttle controls the motor in launch mode and in all other modes acts as a flap stick. An interesting function allows you to require that multiple switches must be set to the ON position before you can assess the motor function. Throttle hold and trim are also included.
21. The new wing type includes a six-servo wing with tip-ailerons. In addition to the dual flap function in the 9303, the 11x includes functions for dual elevator, dual rudder and dual spoilers. Interesting. Dual spoilers can be setup to help roll the aircraft. Very cool. (you could do this 9303, but it was difficult). If you have two servos driving an elevator or a very long control surface sometimes found on large scale plane, a feature called ServoSync provides a simple way to make sure both servos act the same way.
22. Servo Balance is also available if the servo linkage geometry for two servos driving a single control surface are not identical. Similar to the multipoint mixing discussed below, just a dedicated screen for each of the activated dual flight surfaces. For something as complicated as this, the screen shot makes it look fairly simple.
23. Flaperon mix includes some new possibilities. New to the 11x is the aileron to tip-aileron mix. The scale guys are gonna love this. There might be a rash of new six servo TD planes because of this mix.
24. In addition to the switches, the sticks can also become switches. When a stick moves past a certain point it can turn on/off mixes, differential rates, timers and a bunch of others. I don’t know if this “stick switch” can activate a flight mode.
25. The 11x sports a new limit adjustment for servos. This function allows the adjustment of maximum travel possible for each channel in both directions. This prevents any channel from being over driven when features like travel adjust, dual rates and programming rates may combine to over drive a servo past a set point.
26. Here is a new one, Servo Speed. The 11x allows you to change servo speed. Servo speed can change from .176 seconds for 60 degrees of rotation to 15 seconds for 60 degrees of rotation.
27. The amount of camber on the side slide can be set differently for each of the five flight modes. The 9303 used a complicated method of setting flap movement and offset and then mixing aileron with a different screen with different screen names. And, the one or two word description of the screen was not intuitive. The 9303 programming for side slide camber was a difficult process and easy to forgot. The 11x appears to have simplified this dramatically. From the instructions, a single screen sets camber or reflex to a side slider, then use flaperon mix to match the ailerons. Much simpler.
28. Camber presets appear very similar to the 9303 with the addition of tip ailerons and several other features that will require some hands-on experimenting.
29. Butterfly is gone. It has been replaced with “Landing Mode. Butterfly mixing caused confusion that went along with setting landing flap and elevator compensation. It was replaced with a series of screens that can mix spoilers, flaps, flaperons, tip ailerons and elevator to the flap stick. The 9303 could also do this, but unlike the 9303, the 11x has reorganized these functions so they can accessed from a single location in the radio. I can report more later when I I get to play with a radio.
30. Aileron differential can be different for each flight mode like the 9303. Now you can add additional differential settings. You can set a “break” position for the flap stick that changes the differential when the stick passes a certain point. Sounds like reverse differential is available in each of the flight modes that can be turned on and off simply by moving the flap stick. You could do this in the 9303 by using a non-dedicated mix, but it affected all flight modes the same. And it was difficult to do. The 11x appears to simplify this issue and provide a different setting for each flight mode.
31. Snap-Flaps. This has always been available in the 9303 but you had to perform some complicated programming using one of the variable point mixes. But, with only one multi point mix available (the other was used for landing elevator compensation), the same camber and break point was the same in all flight modes. In the 11x, a single screen allows you to set the camber (or reflex) for each flight mode, the point in which the elevator stick activates snap flaps (break point) and the amount of camber (or reflex). The brake point can be separately set for each flight mode. The “break point” provides a point in the stick movement for the snap flap to begin. In other words, you can set no trailing edge change for small elevator changes, but once the elevator passes a certain point, camber or reflex is mixed in. The slope racer crowd will love this function. Also, the TD guys have been looking for this feature for some time.
32. Rudder to spoiler mixing was available in the 9303, you just had to get a little creative. You could either plug the separate spoilers into the aileron channels and mix aileron to rudder or let rudder drive the ailerons. Both worked, just kinda messy. The 11x provides its own mix for this situation. I cannot tell from the manual if the mix is activated by moving the rudder or the aileron stick but it is easily moved to the aileron stick using the Master/Slave mix function. Will this require a change to the RES rules? Several scale models will also use this function.
33. The non-dedicated mixes in the 9303 are available in the 11x. With the new mix specific features found in the 11x, a 6 servo TD setup does not appear to need any of these non-dedicated mixes. The new mulitpoint mixes in the 11x that appear to have been expanded to provide additional flexibility. In the 9303, the points along the bottom of the screen (horizontal) were fixed. You could only change the value (vertical) at each point. In the 11x, it appears that up to 7 points along the horizontal can be set at any point along the line.
34. Gyro’s? You bet. The 11x allows in flight selection of up to 3 gyro settings for up to two separate gyros, or up to three settings assigned to flight modes. You can assign and select gyro settings by switch or flight modes.
35. There is a stick position switch. The flap stick, rudder, elevator or aileron can activate a mix through a stick position switch. Various mixes can be changed by moving the stick past a certain point. Something similar was available in the 9303. I cannot determine from the manual if the stick position can turn on a flight mode. This would be useful on approach if all you had to do activate landing mode was to pull the flap stick down part way. This one will take some time to figure out.
36. You might be looking for confirmation of programming found in the 9303. If you don’t see something here, it means that what was available in the 9303 is also available on the 11x.
37. I need to spend some time with the radio to determine if several functions I was hoping for are included. I don’t know if there is a momentary switch on the left side. I still need to figure out if floating elevator trim is available. Floating trim is a fancy way of linking all the flight mode elevator trims to the cruise elevator trim setting. An example would be setting Cruise mode as a base with thermal at plus two clicks of up trim and speed with three clicks of down trim. Elevator trim changes through the day for temperature and wind speed changes. As I change elevator trim in cruise mode, the other flight modes would also move the same amount.

So far, these new and expanded features make this radio very attractive. In addition, it just looks cool. Finally, although features have been expanded and new ones added, (new complexity) the programming has been simplified.

Until I get my hands on a radio, I don’t have all the screen shots. It is the screen shots that will actually tell me how much the programming has been expanded or changed. Given the possible number of screen shots, I am really looking forward to playing with this radio.
Please remember, this information is coming directly from what I read in the manual. Until I get to play with a radio and see all the additional screen shots, I really don’t know the radios full potential.

There were some particular issues I was hoping to see changed, but I cannot tell if those issues were addressed until a later date.

If you are looking for a particular piece of programming, please ask me by posting it here. I am sure that someone else will have the same question. Just be very specific. Something similar to, when I move the stick(which stick) or a particular switch (which switch), can I get a particular control surface (which control surface) to move in a direction (which direction)? A question similar to “can I trim butterfly” does not provide enough information to solicit an answer.

Sherman Knight
Team JR
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Old May 05, 2010, 06:28 PM
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Larry Jolly's Avatar
Joined Oct 2003
1,767 Posts
Sherman,
I am flying the 11X and you are going to be very impressed with the radio. I was invoved with the programing requests and think the 11X will be the choice even over the 12X. Send me your email address and I will send you some of the ideas for the 11X. You won't put a 9 series radio in anything except a HL after you fly the 11X. LJ
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Old May 06, 2010, 05:32 AM
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Rpinto's Avatar
Almada - Portugal
Joined Oct 2004
100 Posts
Hi Sherman,

I'm convinced that is very nice radio, maybe I'll buy it too. The only think that I can't swallow is the JR argument that "flexibility breeds complexity". Maybe I'm too much European and you not enought American. No hard fillings I have the greatest respect for you.
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Old May 06, 2010, 07:17 AM
Thermal Junkie
truestorys's Avatar
Austin Texas
Joined Dec 2005
909 Posts
USB Port?

Does the new Radio have a USB port?

We need a simple way to transfer programs from Radio to Radio.


I know I can use the cable, but I've always found it to be a chore and I have never trusted that all the data is past to the receiving radio. (just personal paranoid observation with no concrete proof)

Don
* * * * ** * Found answer to my own question ********
The 11X is also surprisingly easy to use for a radio so advanced. Accessing functions and programming settings is simple with the intuitive roller button interface and big, backlit LCD screen. It also has an SD card slot for model storage, memory expansion and software updates.

So my new question is, can I take my buddys SD card out of his radio and slap it in mine and steal his programming?
I'll do this while Jim Fricky is buying a hot dog at the TNT.

??
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Old May 06, 2010, 06:06 PM
Sherman Knight
Kirkland Washington
Joined Feb 2002
770 Posts
Sport Fans,

Rpinto, thanks for the comment. Rpinto comment was: "The only think that I can't swallow is the JR argument that "flexibility breeds complexity".

Sorry if I gave the wrong impression, but the “flexibility breeds complexity “ is not JR's argument, it is solely mine. Please keep in mind that complexity is not a negative thing. It is something we actually want.

In the 80”s, (The IBM desktop computer debuted in 1982) sailplanes were transitioning from RES (Rudder, Elevator, Spoiler) planes to bagged or laminated wings with six control surfaces (Rudder, Elevator, Ailerons and Flaps) Initially, the planes developed faster that radio technology. In the early Dodgson era, six control surfaces were controlled with a four-channel radio. The mixing was mechanical and located in the aircraft. Dodgson called it the A-FART system. It worked, but took all summer to tweak just to get it close to what you wanted. At that time, we had servo reversing and Dual Rates, but not much else.

With the Airtronics Vision 8, followed by the JR 347, we finally had a way to use a separate servo on each control surface and could easily change trim without changing any mechanicals. Although the mechanicals became simple, the radios became complicated. Four servos became six. A programmable radio was an entirely new thing to figure out. The programming was something we all wanted, but at times, limited and difficult to figure out.

A example of a feature we were dying to get, was elevator compensation when you deployed the flaps. With A-Fart, the mixing was done with the right thumb and was one of the most difficult things for a pilot to learn. With early computer radios, you could mix flaps to elevator. A very cool feature that added complexity to the radio while making the aircraft easier to land. Unfortunately, the mix was linear. The result was a “bump” that occurred when you first pulled flaps that you still had to compensate for, but it took less thumb than it did before. The addition of this feature increases the radios flexibility, but adds complexity to the programming. To eliminate the “bump,” non-linear (variable rate) mixing was developed. Again, more flexibility. With linear, I only had to determine the beginning and end point for the mix. With the flexibility of a non-linear mix, I can eliminate the “bump” as long as I program a value into the five points between the beginning and the end point. It evolved from no mix to liner mix to non-linear mix. Each step added flexibility at the expense of complexity.

Currently, it is rare when you see a “new” feature. It is usually an enhancement of an existing feature. Moving from analog to digital trims comes to mind. With analog trims, you plugged it in and you got what you got. Not flexible and certainly not complex. With digital trims, you now have the ability to adjust the amount of trim from each bump of the trim button. You can change the centering of the trim with an electronic sub-trim. Electronic end points can be set so you don’t over drive a servo with the trim. Electronic trims can be saved when going from model to model. Flipping a switch can change a control surface from one trim to another. With Flight Modes, you can establish different trims for up to five different flight modes. Holy crap!

My favorite example is assignable switches. The Futaba Attack 4 was the radio of choice in the late 70’s and early 80’s. Four two-way switches, none of the assignable. You were stuck with them. No flexibility, no complexity. Today, you have 8 three-way switches that you can assign to any function, or mix you want. You can inhibit the switch. You can rename the switch. This is an incredible amount of flexibility. You just have to activate the switch, assign it to a particular function, determine the direction of the switch and finally rename the switch. Switches are much more flexible than they have ever been. They just takes more effort to set up.

The flexibility of these new functions is amazing. Although all these features are COOL, you still have to get into the programming to set them up. All of this flexibility results in more programming work that you must do. Hence, complexity.

Complexity is not a bad thing. I like it. The statement is simply a reflection that as new functions and enhancements become available, you have to do more work to set them up. Over time, software may make it easier to setup, but the number of functions will never decline.

Hope this helps.

Sherman Knight
Team JR
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Old May 06, 2010, 06:16 PM
Sherman Knight
Kirkland Washington
Joined Feb 2002
770 Posts
Response to Truestorys

The 11x does not have a USB port.

I am one of the trainer pilots at my field. To reduce time programming other radios, I developed a standard program that I can transfer from my radio, All I have to do then is sub trim each servo, make sure they all move in the correct direction, set some end points and we are ready to go. I have transferred programs hundreds of times with a cable and never had a problem.

To the best of my knowledge, the SD card will allow you to transfer programming. Transfer with a card or a cable is nothing more than transferring a file from one computer to another. The process is the same, the only thing different is the delivery system.

Hope this helps.

Sherman Knight
Team JR
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Old May 07, 2010, 03:23 AM
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Almada - Portugal
Joined Oct 2004
100 Posts
I'm sorry about the grammatical error, "think" should be read "thing".

I said that because I already heard this kind of argument from JR fans. Like if it was a kind of justification for the lack of innovation, besides the good looking, just improvements that we already found on other radios.

Maybe this is just a Japanese way of thinking, "if it works there is no need to change" and "hobby people don't need to think"

I like the flexibility given by the German way of thinking.

I'm sorry if this sounds unfair and thanks for your attention.
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Old May 08, 2010, 01:59 AM
Can you DS it??
spotterone's Avatar
Australia, NSW, Berowra
Joined Aug 2008
1,420 Posts
In reference to the following statement:

25. The 11x sports a new limit adjustment for servos. This function allows the adjustment of maximum travel possible for each channel in both directions. This prevents any channel from being over driven when features like travel adjust, dual rates and programming rates may combine to over drive a servo past a set point.

Does this mean that the end points for the servo's are limited absolutely? I currently have a DSX9 and cannot find a way of limiting down travel on a flap as an individual component. I can use the travel adjustment function to limit both flaps, but if flaperon is activated, one flap invariably travels down more than the other with the flaps deployed, and invariably further than I would like.

If the 11x has an absolute end point (ie servo travels only as far as a certain point no matter what the function), JR have sold me yet another transmitter!

Cheers,

Leo
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Old May 08, 2010, 03:28 AM
Tailspin
Grand Blanc, Michigan
Joined Feb 2006
432 Posts
I played with the 11X at Toledo and feel it is the first radio I would even consider when my Profi 4000's die. The capabilities are almost as good as the 4K (a TD pilot would never need the additional stuff the 4K has) and it sure is nice to have a big screen with more info at one time.

It was intuitive for me to do the basic stuff and I have not programmed a JR ever so it can't be too bad for someone that has a current JR system.

My personal problem with the radio is that the sliders are on the back of the case and I use a tray to fly - not compatible, I would have to go back to a strap and I really do not want to do that.

I would guess that because the Profi is such and old system the JR will have a lot less latency but I do not know that for sure. Not too important for a TD pilot but my heli's like the quick data updates.

One of the things the JR guy's did was listen to the LJ class of pilot and put real sailplane names on things which will help get the programming done quicker because you do not have to relate to a new language.

I will let you judge the styling of the radio, you may like it but let's say it is the opposite end of the Profi for appearance.

Bottom like is, this is the first radio to come close to a Profi in ten years and it really looks like they did a great job on it.

Jack
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Old May 08, 2010, 08:58 AM
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Joined Oct 2003
1,767 Posts
Sherman,
I have not been giving specifics because my 11X has prototype software in it. Last night Johhny D sent me the new version of software in an email. I down loaded it to an SD card and had the new version installed in minutes. I am so happy the JR engineers have added this feature. This means the 11X can be upgraded over time as new versions of software become available, a first for JR to my knowledge. I wish they had done this for the 12X, I would love to fix a couple of things in that program. I will spend today going through the new 11X program. For those flying the 12X you may not find the need to go to the 11X. But those who have been flying a 9303, this radio offers a bunch of sailplane capability for a reasonable investment. I also like the way the tranny fits in my left hand for launching, lighter than a 12X the recess panel on the back makes for a nice grip. Another nice feature is the ability to just scroll over to the System list without having to turn the TX off, and then hold the Enter key down as you turn it back on. LJ
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