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Old Jul 29, 2011, 01:53 PM
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San Diego, CA
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Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Well, after finding to my surprise how repairable a SkySurfer is (even when everything forward of the wing, or above the wing, is gone), I believe it is now ready to fly once again! Tomorrow should tell the tale.

OTOH, the new SkySurfer (V1) arrived from Tim at ReadyMadeRC.com. Looks just as advertised, no hassles, no problems. It's a pleasure to buy a SkySurfer from a vendor who does it right.
Well, the SkySurfer flew nicely. Was a little squirrely on the first flight after the crash and repair job. Winds were slightly gusty, and the smallest bump would set the plane to zooming and stalling. Put in and took out various amounts of trim here and there, and finally decided it was tailheavy. Brought it in for a good landing, swapped out the 1300mAh 3s battery in the nose for a 2200 3s, and added a little up trim. Then it flew very smoothly! Even did some loops with no adverse consequences.

SkySurfer is a sweet plane, and I know now it can take quite a beating and still come back to fly again. It's very repairable. An excellent beginnner/intermediate plane.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 02:11 PM
Pastor of Muppets \m/
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United States, TX, Odessa
Joined Mar 2010
967 Posts
Awesome to hear Acorn. I know if my bixler is still kicking it is definitely a tough little plane. I plan on doing a little light-weight spackling and repainting this weekend. I finally found some 3m Extreme tape so hopefully it will protect the paint a little on landings. I had to order it online. :l The only place local I could find any was office depot and they wanted $14..madness I say.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 02:41 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by theothercliff View Post
Brushless ESC's

To be a little more complete, they actually use Pulse Width Modulation to simulate a changing frequency 3 phase current. Where your huge industrial 3 phase motors only operate at one speed (or a harmonic set of speeds like a ceiling fan, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5) because the "wall current" is one frequency, these controllers change the frequency to change the speed. Some audio amps use the same PWM technique to produce sound without the heat of a standard linear circuit.

These ESC's produce musical tones by kicking one way and then the other with fairly small (i.e. short) kicks. Kick left, wait 1/1000th second, kick right, wait 1000th second... produces a musical tone at a little less than 500 cycles per second. Most ESC's produce musical tones at startup, whether the throttle is full or off (i.e. correct or backwards). Hearing these tones is a good sign that 90% of everything is right, and you may just need to reverse your throttle channel direction or move your throttle trim to the lowest position.

These ESC's have to be smart. To start the motor when they have no idea how the windings are lined up, they just send a quick pulse out, and measure the induced voltage to determine if they have started the motor forwards, backwards, or not at all. Given this new information, they can start the motor in the correct direction. They assume that it is still where it was because they can see it when it moves because of the magnets and coils of wire even if they are not the ones moving it. If an ESC does not see any induced voltage it quickly stops trying; so if the motor is detached, even a correctly setup ESC probably won't produce any voltage other than perhaps some initial musical tones or a quick blip when you first advance the throttle. Understand that ESC's think very quickly so you aren't going to see a motor start backwards and correct itself unless the ESC is configured incorrectly (typically timing). They measure and react in on the order of 1/1000th second.

So... Measure AC voltage while they are playing tones right at startup to have a chance of detecting it. I would leave the motor attached to the ESC (and importantly to the motor mount as well, torque of motor start can twist wires up if the motor is not bolted down) with the prop off.

Better yet, disconnect the motor from the ESC and measure continuity of motor windings (at lowest ohms scale) from each lead to both of the others. All six measurements should read close to 0 ohms. Read the leads shorted together too and realize that the motor resistance is the difference in these numbers. If anything reads "open" you have a bad motor. You still could have a bad motor (shorted) even if they read zero, but it is less common. Small inexpensive motors and the tiniest of specialty motors may read a significant fraction of 1 ohm.

Modern receivers take a few seconds to "boot up". Some ESC's takes a few seconds after that to fully recognize the signal. You should leave the throttle all the way down until a few seconds after the other channels are working as evidenced by e.g. wiggling the elevator.

Some ESC's must be armed by starting out all the way down for a few seconds, then go full throttle for a few more seconds, then go back down (perhaps for a few more seconds, some are immediate at this point).

Does the motor / ESC make any tones when you first turn everything (transmitter, then plug in airplane battery) on with the throttle low? If not, and the motor shows continuity, you probably have a bad ESC.

Cliff

Copyright 2011 by Cliff Geerdes
Dr. Cliff,

Excellent writeup and explanation. Make sure you copy and paste this into your RCgroups blog for future use. If you don't I will put in mine and give you full credit.

Again, excellent post.

Bill
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 02:54 PM
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United States, DC, Washington
Joined Mar 2011
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Originally Posted by StarHopper44 View Post
Hi VJ;
That was me....but they haven't arrived yet...
Star:

Did you get your carbon fiber spars from Hobby King? Can you give us of list of what your received? What did you think?

What size fit best inside the 6mm tube?

Good strength? No split ends? Other comments?

I need to order ASAP.

VJ
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 03:02 PM
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United States, NC, Richlands
Joined Jun 2011
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Y'all remember my 'dream' for building a double-fuse Bix Hybrid? (See sketch below).

Turns out like most good ideas, it's been done.
Not exactly -- slightly different plane....but close enough.
Stumbled across this today looking for info on something else.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1397948
This one's a true 'doolie'.....also a 'resurrection' job, aptly yclept 'The Phoenix'.
'How-to-do' pix & maiden video at the end.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 03:13 PM
Earthbound Skyhound
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United States, NC, Richlands
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia Jim View Post
Star:

Did you get your carbon fiber spars from Hobby King? Can you give us of list of what your received? What did you think?

What size fit best inside the 6mm tube?

Good strength? No split ends? Other comments?

I need to order ASAP.

VJ
Hi VJ;
Funny you should ask. HE77 NO!!!

Wednesday I got a notice in my mailbox there's a package I gotta sign for....of course gotta make the 22-mile trip into town to the post office! In this 102 heat! Turned out to be the package of stuff (batts, linkage etc) I ordered from HK a solid week AFTER I ordered the Bix & CF array.
Thought sure I'd get it either yesterday or today, & kept an eye out for the mail lady so's I wouldn't have to go in town again....but all she brought was bills. (Want some?? Anybody! You're welcome to 'em!!)

Everything else I've ordered has come in....now all I need's a steenkin' plane to stick 'em on!
*back to pacing floor*
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 03:54 PM
Earthbound Skyhound
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United States, NC, Richlands
Joined Jun 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theothercliff View Post
I hate to flog a dead horse, but is your prop on correctly? Looking from the wing tip a vertical prop should have the straight looking side forward and the curved one to the back of the plane. Cliff
Two things. One, that's twice you've said that recently....and it's bass ackwards from everything I've been taught - that the conVEX curve of the prop faces the direction of travel. Am I missing something in what you wrote?

The other:
Quote:
Originally Posted by theothercliff View Post
Brushless ESC's
...All six measurements should read close to 0 ohms.
Niggling, but only 3 measures should cover 'em. 1-2; 1-3 & 2-3. ???
Again, am I missing something?

-----
\\\\\ /////
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 04:03 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StarHopper44 View Post
Two things. One, that's twice you've said that recently....and it's bass ackwards from everything I've been taught - that the conVEX curve of the prop faces the direction of travel. Am I missing something in what you wrote?

The other:


Niggling, but only 3 measures should cover 'em. 1-2; 1-3 & 2-3. ???
Again, am I missing something?

-----
\\\\\ /////
Convex side faces the front of the plane.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 04:19 PM
I used to like trees
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United States, WA, Spokane
Joined Jul 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
Well, the SkySurfer flew nicely. Was a little squirrely on the first flight after the crash and repair job. Winds were slightly gusty, and the smallest bump would set the plane to zooming and stalling. Put in and took out various amounts of trim here and there, and finally decided it was tailheavy. Brought it in for a good landing, swapped out the 1300mAh 3s battery in the nose for a 2200 3s, and added a little up trim. Then it flew very smoothly! Even did some loops with no adverse consequences.

SkySurfer is a sweet plane, and I know now it can take quite a beating and still come back to fly again. It's very repairable. An excellent beginnner/intermediate plane.
I've noticed my Sky Surfer does some porpoising at lower throttle settings. All I have is the 1300mAh 3s batteries so I added some ballast to the nose. CG is about 62mm from leading edge. Still is acting a bit tail heavy. It takes a lot of trim to keep it from porpoising. Maybe a bit more ballast until I get some 2200 3s batts.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 04:45 PM
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United States, DC, Washington
Joined Mar 2011
329 Posts
How practical is it to put simple landing gear on the SS/Bix? Any tips on technique, sources for materials, photos, etc?
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 05:31 PM
Gravity impaired
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United States, NY, Wolcott
Joined Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virginia Jim View Post
How practical is it to put simple landing gear on the SS/Bix? Any tips on technique, sources for materials, photos, etc?
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=173
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 06:17 PM
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USA, MN, North St Paul
Joined Jul 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theothercliff View Post
Does the motor / ESC make any tones when you first turn everything (transmitter, then plug in airplane battery) on with the throttle low? If not, and the motor shows continuity, you probably have a bad ESC.
Here is some more data for my ESC/Motor problem.

Throttle Sound, Light
position

0.0, silent, steady light
1/4, steady beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
1/2, steady beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
3/4, musical beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
1.0, musical beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)

In all cases the other controls function correctly.
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 07:20 PM
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Canton, Michigan USA
Joined Jul 2007
15,856 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by StanHilliard View Post
Here is some more data for my ESC/Motor problem.

Throttle Sound, Light
position

0.0, silent, steady light
1/4, steady beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
1/2, steady beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
3/4, musical beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)
1.0, musical beeps, steady light (beep stops when throttle =>0)

In all cases the other controls function correctly.
Stan,

Throw in the towel and just buy a new ESC at Headsuprc.com
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 07:22 PM
Clueless, but trying
Orcoz's Avatar
United States, WA, Enumclaw
Joined Nov 2001
748 Posts
Any ideas on how to balance the 6X4e prop to reduce vibration without an investment in more gear?
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Old Jul 29, 2011, 07:23 PM
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A Barrier Island in New Jersey, USA
Joined Oct 2003
3,405 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rchank View Post
I've noticed my Sky Surfer does some porpoising at lower throttle settings. All I have is the 1300mAh 3s batteries so I added some ballast to the nose. CG is about 62mm from leading edge. Still is acting a bit tail heavy. It takes a lot of trim to keep it from porpoising. Maybe a bit more ballast until I get some 2200 3s batts.
Are you balancing on the spar at the wing's root? That is where the Bixler's CG is and I assume (uh, oh... there's that "word") that is also where the SS balances. With the plane balanced at the CG you should not be experiencing any porpoising.

Aeronca
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