Originally Posted by Balr14

The CB180Z may handle wind better because of it's considerable bulk. But, the MSR is a much quicker and more positive responding heli. Again, head design tells you all you need to know.

Thanks for the response.
Then which of the following would be best for flying in a small yard with light wind conditions ? (after already having learned to fly the Mcx and Msr)

Blade 120 sr
Blade sr
4#6s
CB180z
4G6S
V200 series

(or any other suggestions in the $150 to $250 RTF price range)

Originally Posted by TravisBean

Thanks for the response.
Then which of the following would be best for flying in a small yard with light wind conditions ? (after already having learned to fly the Mcx and Msr)

Blade 120 sr
Blade sr
4#6s
CB180z
4G6S
V200 series

(or any other suggestions in the $150 to $250 RTF price range)

Well, of course I'm going to say the Quark (head design, again). But for a second choice, the V200 is very interesting. The 120SR might be worthwhile if you like how the MSR flies, but it's not a step up. The 4G6S is definitely a step up, but cost would be a factor. The Blade SR is probably a poor choice unless you are an experienced CP pliot.

Technica, no problems here; I just basically wanted us to get back on tract about the 180Z and make a few humble points of my own as to the "marketabilty" of the Quark verses the 180Z. The point is that due to it's "style/looks", features, etc. the 180Z is a more appealing heli than the Quark; let's face it, Walkera helis are nice looking and generally have that sought after "pro look". Even though I have never flown a Quark SRB, I believe you and Balr that it is a very nice heli and in many ways superior to the 180Z; I was only critiquing it from a sales and marketing standpoint.

I think if WOW's "transformer" 180Z Pro is all that they claim it to be, then it may well prove to be the "missing link" in stepping up from a coaxial to an FP and beyond without having to spend the money(hard to do in this lousy economy), by purchasing several helis while you are progressing in skills, because yes, you are right that people still need to LEARN to fly an FP heli and there is no escaping the skills needed to do so. I can't afford to buy 2 or 3 different types of helis to get to where I want to be; so the idea of a "transformer" heli than can be "transformed" as your skills progress seems to me to be a brilliant idea and a money saver as well.

Anyway it's all good, and WOW, hurry up and release the "transformer" 180Z!

Originally Posted by Balr14

Well, of course I'm going to say the Quark (head design, again). But for a second choice, the V200 is very interesting.

Based on head design, I think that the flybarless helicopters will have to be the winners here. Sure, there almost certainly will be some teething issues with the electronic side of things, but I think that even the mighty Quark will have finally met its match with these things.

I wouldn't be surprised if the new recommended training path will become:
1. Flybarless FP
2. Flybarless CP

With RC technology advancing at a seemingly exponential pace, the only thing that would stop a complete beginner in the future going straight to CP is the complexity if the hardware - not the difficulty of flight.

Until then, the 180Z transformer may have it's place. That is until next week when Walkera or someone will bring out a super stable mind controlled heli.

Originally Posted by Fly-a-kite

Based on head design, I think that the flybarless helicopters will have to be the winners here. Sure, there almost certainly will be some teething issues with the electronic side of things, but I think that even the mighty Quark will have finally met its match with these things.

I wouldn't be surprised if the new recommended training path will become:
1. Flybarless FP
2. Flybarless CP

With RC technology advancing at a seemingly exponential pace, the only thing that would stop a complete beginner in the future going straight to CP is the complexity if the hardware - not the difficulty of flight.

Until then, the 180Z transformer may have it's place. That is until next week when Walkera or someone will bring out a super stable mind controlled heli.

I agree the flybarless heli is ultimately the best setup. But, it takes a virtual flybar system like Heli Hacker is working on, or a Skokum 720. A simple 3 axis gyro does not replace the functions a flybar provides on a well designed head. I would be glad to discuss these points in some other topic or in private. I don't think it's appropriate here.

Had a nice crash into daughters toy jeep..ouch. Anyhow need to replace FLYBAR. Ordered new part, but having difficulty removing old flybar from main hub/shaft assembly. There appears to be two bearings pressed into both sides of hub assembly. This is the pivot point for the flybar. Cannot slider flybar out and held in place..dont want to pull or mess up more. Any suggestions on how to get flybar out, or get pressed bearing/pivot point bearings out. Looked at new exploded view on walkera site. This confirmed that there are two bearings on either side. Thanx Paul

Originally Posted by jjetmec

Had a nice crash into daughters toy jeep..ouch. Anyhow need to replace FLYBAR. Ordered new part, but having difficulty removing old flybar from main hub/shaft assembly. There appears to be two bearings pressed into both sides of hub assembly. This is the pivot point for the flybar. Cannot slider flybar out and held in place..dont want to pull or mess up more. Any suggestions on how to get flybar out, or get pressed bearing/pivot point bearings out. Looked at new exploded view on walkera site. This confirmed that there are two bearings on either side. Thanx Paul

Just use a tiny flathead screw driver, or an exacto knife to gently push them out from inside the hub. Be careful as they are apt to POP out and go flying across the room! Ask me how I know!

Anyway, they’re not glued in, so just gently push them out, then the fly bar will slide out “fairly” easily.

Feel sort of silly b/c it took all of 15 seconds to do what you recommended to remove both bearings from the hub..thanx paul

One thing I found out the hard way, if your 180Z happens to crash, break the flybar, and launch one of the bearings, mainshaft bearings from a Blade MSR are the exact same size, and in my case, available locally

Originally Posted by Balr14

Well, of course I'm going to say the Quark (head design, again). But for a second choice, the V200 is very interesting. The 120SR might be worthwhile if you like how the MSR flies, but it's not a step up. The 4G6S is definitely a step up, but cost would be a factor. The Blade SR is probably a poor choice unless you are an experienced CP pliot.

A FP heli even when equipped with the best 3-axis gyro can never be comparable with a CP heli when it comes to cyclic-authority.
You could run a constant 4000rpm headspeed on a small CP heli which gives you enough cyclic-authority to let you enjoy the flight in the wind, but you can't do that with an FP. Everytime you descend an FP, headspeed drops and cyclic-authority will follow-suit.

So, I was about to say "Blade SR!"... but your right, a CP heli that size is not forgiving at all. In fact, it's a major step-up.

The SR will suit someone who has already mastered the hovering of a conventional FP heli like the honeybee FP or any other non-coaxial fixed pitch 'trainer' model that does not have that 45* stabilizing-flybar design.

But don't get me wrong, I do like the CB180Z a lot. It's like the ultimate FP machine in Walkera style (I'm a fan of Spektrum, so I prefer Spektrum bind-n-fly instead of Walkera's) which I would certainly like to add to my fleet.

Originally Posted by terencechan

You could run a constant 4000rpm headspeed on a small CP heli which gives you enough cyclic-authority to let you enjoy the flight in the wind, but you can't do that with an FP..

I was not aware that CP helis were using head speeds even approaching 4000 rpm.

Popular 200/ 250-sizes CP models like SJM 215, Trex 250 and Gaui 200 are all capable of approaching 4000rpm when flown with 100% flat throttle-curve in Idle-up(Stunt) mode when 3D pilots use up-sized pinions (from 3rd party like Xtreme Productions). If they throw in a Scorpion motor for upgrade, they don't need full throttle to hit 4000rpm with using the stock pinion. However, since most manufacturers caution not to exceed 4200 safety limit, the stock pinion usually needs to be down-sized instead to accommodate the higher-kv Scorpion. Sorry for the off-topic...

WowHobbies.com has just released the CB180Z-Pro Wind-Rider. Many here have tried to fly the CB180Z outdoor and most were disppointed on how it got blown away by wind. There are a few mods mentioned here but nothing commercially availabe until now. Unlike the stock CB180Z the Wind-Rider is an action packed upgraded CB180Z called the CB180Z-Pro which can fly well in 3-5 mph wind at the same time being able to retain its easy-to-fly Bell design characteristic of the stock CB180Z. The maneuverability comes from the extra travel in the CB180Z-Pro cyclic servos which is lacking in the stock model. The CB180Z-Pro also comes with stock servo parts so you can easily put it back to the CB180Z stock form even thou you would never need to. See video on what the Wind Rider can do in the wind that can't be done on the stock CB180Z.

CB180Z-Pro Wind-Rider from www.WowHobbies.com (2 min 10 sec)

There are several versions of the CB180Z. Buyers please beware of the differences.
1. Stock CB180Z & WK2402 transmitter.
2. Upgraded CB180Z-Pro Wind-Rider & WK2402 transmitter (Without dual rate). The upgraded CB180Z-Pro has extended servo travel and is more agile than the stock versions.
3. Stock CB180Z & WK2403 transmitter with the upgraded dual rate and throttle limit adjustments. This is a $15 upgrade from 2402 to 2403.
4. Upgraded CB180Z-Pro Wind-Rider & WK2403 transmitter with dual rate which allows for tame or wild outdoor windy conditions flights at a flip of a swith on the transmitter. It also has a throttle limit adjustments. The upgraded CB180Z-Pro impletements the extended servo travel and is much more agile than the stock versions.

Cheers,
Jonathan
www.WowHobbies.com

Nicely done Jonathan. The flip switch idea is a good one! So far, I have only seen this feature in the Nine Eagles Solo, where its tx has a switch for toggling between low and high rates of the swash movement.

For those who have never flown FP heli before, they probably won't think highly of the flight in the video. But for those who started the hobby with a fixed-pitch like myself, we can tell immediately that the video is a good testimonial of the mods.

Here's why -
A honeybee FP or one of those conventional FP models with a 90* flybar will be able to fly like that in the wind, but they don't auto-stablilize and they require tremendous skill and determination to enjoy them. It takes like 2-3 weeks to be able to hover and several months to be able to fly circles.

On the other hand, a FP model that has a 45* flybar to auto-stabilize itself (like the CB180Z), will never be able to fly in that wind, not unless you do the correct mods to it.

So it looks like Wowhobbies had done it again. Congratulations!

Originally Posted by terencechan

Nicely done Jonathan. The flip switch idea is a good one! So far, I have only seen this feature in the Nine Eagles Solo, where its tx has a switch for toggling between low and high rates of the swash movement.

For those who have never flown FP heli before, they probably won't think highly of the flight in the video. But for those who started the hobby with a fixed-pitch like myself, we can tell immediately that the video is a good testimonial of the mods.

Here's why -
A honeybee FP or one of those conventional FP models with a 90* flybar will be able to fly like that in the wind, but they don't auto-stablilize and they require tremendous skill and determination to enjoy them. It takes like 2-3 weeks to be able to hover and several months to be able to fly circles.

On the other hand, a FP model that has a 45* flybar to auto-stabilize itself (like the CB180Z), will never be able to fly in that wind, not unless you do the correct mods to it.

So it looks like Wowhobbies had done it again. Congratulations!

Thanks, well put. Sounds like you have a lot of experience with the Fixed pitch and what they are capable of doing. I started out with Falcon 40/ Sabre and had crashed them at least 200 times before I learned how to hover nose out. The standard 90 degree flybar fixed pitch helis, not only are they difficult to learn but also the tail motor will keep on burning out. I have gone through about 8 tail motors and 3 main motors in the process. When the CB180Z was released, I was very excited that there is finally something with a great tail design and easy to fly. Unfortunately it wasn't completely true. The CB180Z is easy to hover but impossible to fly even in a breeze. You have to wait for a very calm day and we all know that is rare in most regions of the world. When you are going through a withdraw, LOL it's hard to resist the temptation and you would likely take that risk, well we all know what happens next, your CB180Z would float away like a baloon. Since the CB180Z was released, I have been continuously pursuing a heli for the beginners that is easy to fly and wind resistant. As you can see in the video that dream has come true, the CB180Z-Pro is both wind resistant and at the same time has retained all of the original Bell stabalizing head design.

Jonathan
WowHobbies.com