SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Dec 30, 2010, 07:33 PM
GM
Caloundra, QLD, Australia
Joined Sep 2008
15 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by topforce View Post
I would not get a crashed one unless it was super cheap, and only superficial cosmetic type damage. Also minimum flyable setup is an mpjet 4100kv motor on stock 3 blade fan. Anything less than that, and your going to struggle to stay in the air. Not that it would be slower and easier to fly, but it will be underpowered, and more difficult to fly!

My first choice would be NIB vintage kit. 2nd choice would be low hours great condition,, and seller willing to fly it to prove airworthy.

Absolutely last choice would be anything with any kind of damage, no matter how slight.

Its a tricky model. Somebody else's failure will not be a good start.
Thanks topforce,

The kit is NIB as shipped by Alfa Models. The guy selling is an ex-dealer clearing stock. I think the kit dates back to around 2008.

GM
gmeekan is offline Find More Posts by gmeekan
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jan 03, 2011, 06:42 PM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
I recently put my poor TA-183 into the dirt for good. What a shame. It was only it's 3rd flight. I was still trimming it, getting the CoG right.
I was heading down-wind and banking and it just went in - stalled in. Plus I was tired so didn't react in time. Was very depressed as the fuselage is shattered though the wings were fine.
I really want another Huckebein now as I love the "look" of the model.

As for power source, I "only" had the MPJet 4100Kv motor with the 3-blade impeller. As long as the build is kept light (which is hard not to) and you don't use a massively heavy battery, you should be fine with this. At full throttle I found it to be actually quite zippy considering it's power system, thanks to the beautifully molded components.

If you have a look at cheaper models, you'll see that they often have very "fat" trail edges on the wings - not the Alfa Model TA-183, these were very thin. No extra bits sticking out causing parasitic drag. The high-swept wings also made it fast, but it's this that also gives it easy tip stall behavior.
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Last edited by Slaanesh; Jan 04, 2011 at 08:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 07, 2011, 07:42 PM
GM
Caloundra, QLD, Australia
Joined Sep 2008
15 Posts
Re: Huck destruction & your advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
I recently put my poor TA-183 into the dirt for good. What a shame. It was only it's 3rd flight. I was still trimming it, getting the CoG right.
I was heading down-wind and banking and it just went in - stalled in. Plus I was tired so didn't react in time. Was very depressed as the fuselage is shattered though the wings were fine.
I really want another Huckebein now as I love the "look" of the model.

As for power source, I "only" had the MPJet 4100Kv motor with the 3-blade impeller. As long as the build is kept light (which is hard not to) and you don't use a massively heavy battery, you should be fine with this. At full throttle I found it to be actually quite zippy considering it's power system, thanks to the beautifully molded components.

If you have a look at cheaper models, you'll see that they often have very "fat" trail edges on the wings - not the Alfa Model TA-183, these were very thin. No extra bits sticking out causing parasitic drag. The high-swept wings also made it fast, but it's this that also gives it easy tip stall behavior.
Slaneesh

Shame about your Huck spudding in. I could pm you the details of the Huck seller if you'd like. In the mean time, thanks for your advice.

GM
gmeekan is offline Find More Posts by gmeekan
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 09, 2011, 11:33 PM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
I bought a replacement. It's on it's way. I've learned a lot with that first model.
The EDF unit is still perfectly good though it's all glued and soldered together with an MpJet motor and 25A ESC.

Now I'm just trying to decide:
Do I give the new airframe a complete glass finish? I have some ultra-thin glass and would hope that glassing the entire body and wings would only add 100g or so of weight. If that's the case, I think that it would be acceptable as I intend to use the blue 5-blade impeller this time with a more powerful motor. The main reason is to stop hanger-rash of the soft Alfa foam and give it some robustness for landings, etc. Is the extra weight worth it?

The alternative is to pretty much rebuild the model as light as possible with a stock setup.

The reason I am entertaining the thought of glassing it and adding weight is that the RBC Ta-183 Huckebein is the same size but has a flying weight starting at around 900g!

The relatively large wing-area of the Ta-183 would be able to cope with some extra weight and with it some extra power.

Any one have any comments?
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2011, 12:45 AM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
Received my new TA-183 model. Possibly the last Alfa Model Ta-183 in Australia? Alfa Model kits are very rare here.
I've also got the 60/25 EDF (blue impeller) for it as I think I will go ahead with the glassing - at least on the fuselage. I have read that using Polyacrylic produces a very light and reasonably strong finish.
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2011, 10:01 AM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
Slaanesh

Interested in the polyacrylic finish to strengthen the damaged area of the fuselage. Can you send me the post on this procedure.

I have started the repair work on my huck. Right know I have finished repairing the fan unit. I tried to pin the stator to the duct housing but that turned out to be very hard so I sand the duct wall and stator mounts. I then took a small amount of epoxy to glue the stator to the duct wall. Know I'm trying to build a new intake tube, my first attempt was a failure. So know I'm doing some research on how to work with foam. Any ideas?
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 19, 2011, 10:22 PM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
I bought a replacement. It's on it's way. I've learned a lot with that first model.
The EDF unit is still perfectly good though it's all glued and soldered together with an MpJet motor and 25A ESC.

Now I'm just trying to decide:
Do I give the new airframe a complete glass finish? I have some ultra-thin glass and would hope that glassing the entire body and wings would only add 100g or so of weight. If that's the case, I think that it would be acceptable as I intend to use the blue 5-blade impeller this time with a more powerful motor. The main reason is to stop hanger-rash of the soft Alfa foam and give it some robustness for landings, etc. Is the extra weight worth it?

The alternative is to pretty much rebuild the model as light as possible with a stock setup.

The reason I am entertaining the thought of glassing it and adding weight is that the RBC Ta-183 Huckebein is the same size but has a flying weight starting at around 900g!

The relatively large wing-area of the Ta-183 would be able to cope with some extra weight and with it some extra power.

Any one have any comments?
Slaanesh

Have you ever read this post http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134830 a few guys glassed the air frame and several of them have done the same thing with the reflex as you did. I haven't read all of the post but it starts in 2003 and ends in 2008.
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 28, 2011, 01:33 AM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
The RBC model does however uses a super Wemotec 69mm fan and provides a lot of power.
I don't like building models to be "crash proof", after all aircraft are not supposed to crash, but glassing it would make it more resilient to even hangar rash. I remember I had quite a few dents in it just from handling and transport

The Polyacrylic resin is basically used in lieu of regular 2-part epoxy resin - however it's water based and very thin, which means it's easier to control the amount used. You could use a very thin coat (actually would probably need several coats) and it hopefully would be less weight than epoxy resin glassing.

It's funny, a lot of the mods I did were done previously in the thread that you mentioned, even down to the screws I used for attaching the rear half of the fuselage. I used nylon screws and bolts with embedded washers which was neat and did the job perfectly well.
Reduced reflex was spoken of and using only 50% power on hand launch; all this i did with my Huck. However, my low power using the MpJet 25/25-26 motor meant that I tip stalled it at low altitude (going down wind) and it died horribly. It happened very fast, nothing gently about it. Wing fences supposedly help this so I may add them on (RBC Models Huck has wing fences...)
I still have my old wings so I may have a go at glassing them first and see how much weight it adds and then decide whether or not to commit the same procedure to my new Ta-183.
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 01, 2011, 01:14 AM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
slaanesh

Sorry some how I sent you a pm. I meant to post it on this thread.

I sent this

Hows the new Huck coming along?

I gave up on trying yo make a new and ordered some part from alfa should be here in a week. Hey how did you install you second aileron servo? Got any picks?

Thanks
Doug
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Reply With Quote
Old Feb 06, 2011, 08:38 PM
Registered User
USA
Joined Feb 2002
1,256 Posts
I would not glass any alfa jet. The extra weight will be detrimental to flight quality. I fly at 5000 feet though,, so my jets are already less efficient than you guys closer to sea level.
topforce is offline Find More Posts by topforce
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 09, 2011, 12:11 AM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
Well I got my Ta-183 almost ready to fly again if you look back at post 51 and 52 you will see the damage when the stator came loose. I made a new intake tube and patched the nose back together. I made some modifications while repairing the 183. I added a second aileron servo so I can try Slaanesh's setup. I think this will improve the stability at take off. I also added a magnet to the canopy to help hold it in flight. I have lost it twice but luckily I saw and told a club member to see where it landed. The magnet works great I even have a little trouble lifting the canopy off. I also added a collar lock to hold the tail section to the fuselage. I just slid the 2 sections together and tighten a allan screw on each side of the fuselage. This works well and it makes it easy to get to the fan unit or elevator servo. As you can see in the pic's she isn't as pretty as she was new but it will fly again.
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Last edited by BadLemon; Aug 24, 2011 at 11:51 AM. Reason: spell
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 13, 2011, 08:17 PM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
Looking good! The two servos should improve control somewhat.
You should only need a little reflex when hand launching. I found the thickness of the trailing edge enough. ie. The bottom of the aileron trailing edge flush with the top of the wing.
Despite having 2 servos in the wings I didn't size my rods very well and there was quite a bit of play. On top of that I used cheap servos. Lesson learned.

I've taken delivery of my new motor and I'm going to build my second TA-183 very soon.
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 14, 2011, 10:36 PM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slaanesh View Post
Looking good! The two servos should improve control somewhat.
You should only need a little reflex when hand launching. I found the thickness of the trailing edge enough. ie. The bottom of the aileron trailing edge flush with the top of the wing.
Despite having 2 servos in the wings I didn't size my rods very well and there was quite a bit of play. On top of that I used cheap servos. Lesson learned.

I've taken delivery of my new motor and I'm going to build my second TA-183 very soon.
Slaanesh

So I got this right when you launch the Huck you flip the flap switch to reduce the reflex to 2-3mm's. Then while in flight you return the reflex back to 5-6mm's.

And moving the CG forward moves more weight to the front to help stop ground loop at takeoff.
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 14, 2011, 11:13 PM
Just having fun before I die!
BadLemon's Avatar
DeKalb,IL
Joined Dec 2008
935 Posts
double post
BadLemon is offline Find More Posts by BadLemon
Reply With Quote
Old Apr 17, 2011, 10:47 PM
Not enough hours in the day
Slaanesh's Avatar
Melbourne
Joined Feb 2009
2,429 Posts
Here's my summarized history of flights on my MP Jet 25/25-26, 3-bladed EDF powered Alfa Model TA-183. I am an experienced hand launcher.

First flight
5-6mm reflex. ~80% throttle. Model went literally straight up shortly after flat hand launch. I cut the motor and the model came down, I tried to recover but it nose in, crushing the nose somewhat.

Take it home for repairs. Toyed with the idea of gyro for elevator. Discarded this idea.

Second flight
2mm of reflex. ~40% throttle. Test glided with flat hand launch from a 1.5m embankment down towards a cricket oval. Near perfect flight. TA-183 landed in the middle of the oval about 60m away.

Third flight
2mm of reflex, ~40% throttle. Flat hand launch. Flew out smooth and flat, gradual increase of throttle when about 30m out gentle application of up elevator and model climbs out nicely. Model is a bit out of trim so the entire flight is spent trimming it out.
Model is quite fast at full throttle given the power supply.

Fourth flight
2mm of reflex, ~40% throttle with flat hand launch. Same take off as previous, this time with trimmed model. No problems. Had mix switch programmed to apply 5mm of reflex instead of the neutral position 2mm. Did not adequately test this as on this flight. About 3-4 minutes into flight, flying 10-15m altitude on a downwind leg the model suddenly tip stalled, rolled over on it's right wing and went in - very quickly. Substantial damage and I considered the airframe a write-off though the EDF unit was perfectly fine.

I was using small 4.3g servos in each wing. These were cheap - everything else in my model was top quality components. There was also a bit of play in the linkage. It's possible that my small amount of reflex was being flattened to nothing whilst the model was in flight.
I also suspect the battery which later on caused another model to brown out once and total black out. This battery is now permanently grounded.

So the suspected tip-stall may have been battery browning out the ESC or no reflex on ailerons due to sloppy linkages on low-quality servos.

In answer to your question, yes, 2-3mm reflex on launch. I'm not sure if the entire 5-6mm reflex is required for "normal flight". The extra reflex should reduce tip-stall tendency though it may also need a bit of down elevator mixed in to compensate for pitching up tendency.
Slaanesh is offline Find More Posts by Slaanesh
Last edited by Slaanesh; Apr 17, 2011 at 10:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale NIB Alfa Model Ta-183 "Huckebein" euromodels Aircraft - Electric - Jets (FS/W) 2 Jan 05, 2010 09:44 PM
For Sale Alfa Model Ta-183 Huckebein NIB euromodels Aircraft - Electric - Jets (FS/W) 4 Jan 03, 2010 09:56 PM
Found Steve Neil TA-183 Huckebein SammyB Aircraft - Electric - Jets (FS/W) 10 Oct 17, 2009 11:40 AM
Sold Alfa Model Focke Wulf Ta-183 "Huckebein" rslca Aircraft - Electric - Jets (FS/W) 3 Jun 25, 2008 11:39 PM
Carbon Fiber on Alfa Model HL Ta-183 Huckebein Proença Electric Ducted Fan Jet Talk 17 Aug 27, 2004 07:15 AM