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Old Mar 22, 2010, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Al M View Post
Doesn't need ailerons. It should be covered with silk, nylon or Silron to be authentic. That tank is a Demeco clank tank. Mine flew well with rudder only( no throttle ) on a K&B .15 on a 10-3.5( I think ). Had a citizenship hard tube receiver and a Babcock Mk 1 escapement that was tidied up by a club member who was a jeweler. I flew my first rc flight at a contest near Albany, Ny. with it.
Ya know...thats a real thought. If I go this route I could just recover the areas that need it but only if this is all it needs. If I do the entire fuse then monocoat.

I find it difficult to believe that those small control surfaces would have enough authority to control a plane this size. However I found a good bit of reading on this plane and sure as sheet the consensus is 2 ch.

Here are some pics of what needs to be done. I could prolly get away with this for some time.

What are your thoughts?
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Old Mar 22, 2010, 11:47 PM
B for Bruce
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The 'Wack, BC, Canada
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Yep, the generous dihedral along with around 30 to 40 degrees of rudder travel will snap that baby around like a top. And if you shift the CG back so it isn't so lazy in pitch the elevators will be more than enough to do anything you want other than full on 3D stuff. Do one of the online CG location calculators and see what it says when you input only 5% as the stability margin. Be prepared to reduce the wing incidence to compensate by packing up the trailing edge. Or cut away about 1/8 to 3/16 of the wood at the leading edge and straight line trim the sides to the trailing edge to prelower the wing to tail angle to about +2 degrees between the wing and tail. 0-0 if you use the actual flat bottom of the wing to the stab. That'll prep the model for flying with a more rearward CG location. This would ruin it for rudder only flying but that isn't your goal and it's already got elevators. It'll also make it less suitable for a trainer. But to restore it to a trainer like performer add an ounce to ounce and a half to the nose and then trim in some up elevator trim to compensate and it'll be good for training again.

One of the translucent coverings that look like it has some fibers in it would be a suitable modern covering material. It's not the glorious look of silk and dope but if you're not into that sort of work such a plastic will at least retain the classic look more than the opaque yellow stuff you are looking at useing.

The motor you've got sounds like it's ideal.

Perhaps you're too new to the flying thing but for some of us with lots of air hours we find it fun to take something like this and make it fly well and surprise some of the others that think "HEY! You can't do that without AILERONS!"
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Old Mar 23, 2010, 11:02 AM
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I'm heading to the LHS now and see what he has. Tom has a wealth of knowlege so I'll bring it by and let him have a look.

The motor is mounted and looks good. I want ground handling so I'll pick up a tail wheel assy...linkage looks like it be perplexing.

I'm off to see the wizzard!
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Old Mar 23, 2010, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reacher10 View Post
I'm heading to the LHS now and see what he has. Tom has a wealth of knowlege so I'll bring it by and let him have a look.

The motor is mounted and looks good. I want ground handling so I'll pick up a tail wheel assy...linkage looks like it be perplexing.

I'm off to see the wizzard!
A pull-pull using fishing line is simple and clean. Home
made horn. A collar and piece of brass. This is 60lb just
because it is easy to handle larger line and it looks better.
On the servo end fold it double and insert in a threaded
end and epoxy, rough up the line with steel wool first.
It fits tight in a 2-56 hole..

Also they sell the large line by the foot so you don't have
to get a zillion feet. I think it as a dime a foot.

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Old Mar 23, 2010, 07:57 PM
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If you must recover, I would use a modern covering also.
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Old Mar 23, 2010, 08:14 PM
B for Bruce
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Modern by all means. But there's a number of the new films that have a look that closely mimics the old dyed and clear doped silkspan. Iron on some of that along with some other solid color trim and you've got a model that will age gracefully but has a lovely antique look to it.
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Old Mar 23, 2010, 10:40 PM
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I came to the same conclusion as far as the tail wheel. My initial thoughts were just a seperate single linkage for the wheel but a pull/pull is not a bad idea, it looks good and I like it. My Yak has a PP rudder and I used guitar string. I still still have that setup in the crashed yak that I'll move over to this.

I bought cream color monocoat for now. It looks good with the blue and it will get it up in the air where it belongs however I would much rather use the modern coating that looks like tissue. That will be the plan when I do give it real TLC. My covering skills are, well, I don't have any. So I'm developing them on this project. I covered one elevator and it came out nice but the piece I put on the top of the fuse needs to be done over.

Tom had an aluminum flat pattern landing gear which is the perfect size so I'm drilling that as I type. Get a couple of screws in there and take a pic or two....or three.

I'm really looking foward to flying this as a 3 channel. I flew my little cub like that for about 3 weeks before I put a new wing with ailerons on it and it'll be be fun to get back to that.

For now I'm just laying everything out.
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Old Mar 24, 2010, 07:31 PM
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Here is a quick vid...it's coming back to life. I tried some hanger9 parklite covering I had bought for a repair on my Texan. It's much easier to work with so new plan...covering where needed will be Cub yellow. This stuff even makes me look good.

tail wheel test.AVI (1 min 53 sec)


The motor rubun is on a shot 2S 15C 800 lipo
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Old Mar 24, 2010, 07:43 PM
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Looking good!!!

Do you have some springs in the tail wheel steering?? It
needs some somewhere.
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Old Mar 24, 2010, 08:28 PM
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I got the originals for plans out back, and the Aeronca Champ by DMECO essentially ended aout 1955 or 1956. It was to be called the Controlaire, with a six channel reed radio and the new DeBolt servos.

Hal never introduced it that way, it remained the Champ, until obsolete, and then was picked up again via Midwest. This per an old conversation with Hal a good four or five years ago. I needed answers to other questions so never went into such too far. The large and stable wing dihedral for the Champ is because the A/C was originally designed for single channel radios.

Like one question I had for him was what was the intended power for the Wasp?

A Veco or K&B .45?

Hunn? Don't remember that one at all.


Wm.
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Old Mar 24, 2010, 10:22 PM
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Looking good!!!

Do you have some springs in the tail wheel steering?? It
needs some somewhere.
Gotta head out and get cat food but here is the solution to the spring. I used a loop of elastic cord like the kind on a birthday hat...a little heavier...that each clevis attaches to.

Also these are the guitar strings complete with specs...go figure.

EDIT: The unfed cat is fed. The tail wheel assy I bought for the Yak used this elastic cord to attach to the rudder and it is such a simple way of releiving tension and simple to adjust. I just changed the location of the elastic. It's completely adjustable. One end has a stop knot then thru one hole, I leave a short loop and then down thru the next hole, this is not enough to hold it so I then run it over to the short arm on the servo and thru those two holes in the same fashion and it holds perfectly.

The guitar strings are plenty strong and very easy to work with. I use a brass adaptor from rod to 2-56 a threaded clevis. Bend an inch of the string in half and put it in the solder end of the adaptor and fill that up with solder. A little shrink tube and that connection is done city.

The other end is a simple bend and a crimp.

Everything is just roughed in untill I'm sure it all works well and then I'll finalize it.

I tested the ground handling but it was blowing 30 mph so all it did was weather vane but between gusts is was perfect.

It's funny, when this plane was built the electronics were primtive (by comparison) so it was point and shoot, click right, click right......click left...... The plane had to be built sooo right. Now it plays how dry I am when the battery is hooked up and has guitar strings for linkage. I also mixed the rudder channel to the aileron channel using one of the switches so I'll still have conventional rudder steering, I was getting confused.

Good chance this weekend for the maiden, by me anyway, but the motor shaft is bent, I think. It could possibly be the adaptor.
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Old Mar 25, 2010, 12:23 AM
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In the video I'm seeing a lot of sideways play in the dual clevises. I'm guessing that the matched pair is for the tail wheel and the arc'ed one to the top side of the video is for the rudder? Kimber is right, you need something springy in the loop at some point to absorbe what looks to be the play I'm seeing. Either that or it is due to the guide tubes not being properly centered to the servo. If this last bit is the case then you'll find there's some differential in the setup from the pushrods not being located at 90 degrees to the output arms. Now this isn't a huge issue for the tail wheel but it will mean a lot to the rudder. I'm also seeing what appears to be a lot of the inner rod of the nyrods or similar that it seems you're using for the rudder sticking out in the gap between the servo and where the bulkhead is under the lip of the rear of the wing opening. That is a LOT of unsupported inner pushrod core. You'd get a more solid performance at high speeds by shortening this up. And you'd eliminate the differential you've built in by securing the servo end of the outer support tube at a 90 degree angle to the arm. And stick in a new support 1/2 bulkhead for the outer tubes to secure to that is a little closer to the servo to cut down on the angle and unsupported length of the rudder pushrod.
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Old Mar 25, 2010, 08:05 AM
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In the video I'm seeing a lot of sideways play in the dual clevises. I'm guessing that the matched pair is for the tail wheel and the arc'ed one to the top side of the video is for the rudder? Kimber is right, you need something springy in the loop at some point to absorbe what looks to be the play I'm seeing. Either that or it is due to the guide tubes not being properly centered to the servo. If this last bit is the case then you'll find there's some differential in the setup from the pushrods not being located at 90 degrees to the output arms. Now this isn't a huge issue for the tail wheel but it will mean a lot to the rudder. I'm also seeing what appears to be a lot of the inner rod of the nyrods or similar that it seems you're using for the rudder sticking out in the gap between the servo and where the bulkhead is under the lip of the rear of the wing opening. That is a LOT of unsupported inner pushrod core. You'd get a more solid performance at high speeds by shortening this up. And you'd eliminate the differential you've built in by securing the servo end of the outer support tube at a 90 degree angle to the arm. And stick in a new support 1/2 bulkhead for the outer tubes to secure to that is a little closer to the servo to cut down on the angle and unsupported length of the rudder pushrod.
The cables in video are not tensioned completely and the clevises are tight on the servo servo arm so they don't pivot freely. Now they are attached to the loop of elastic and pivit NP. I used cables that were too short and spliced 2 peices together for the mock up, lot O slop. I have 2 new guitar strings for the final setup. The servos will need to change sides.

The push rods will run thru nylon tubes and they will be supported along the length by the bulkheads. The rudder pushrod will need to exit thru the top of the fuse just about at the leading edge of the vert stab. There is a rectangular cutout in the rear of the fuse that will be the exit point for the elevator pushrod. The cables exit about 3 inches forward of the attachment point and will also run thru nylon tubes.

I'll take another vid later on today. The elastic works great. I can hold the tail wheel from turning and the servo still acuates easily and there is plenty tension for the wheel to steer.

The great part about this plane is the huge cabin area and by opening up aft section of the fuse I have plenty of room to work in.

I keep wanting to cover the fuse but I have to wait till the linkages are done.

The weather no looky so good wind wise for a Saturday maiden...so K though...more time to get it right.
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Old Mar 26, 2010, 06:09 AM
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Ah, so it's still a "work in progress". And from your comments it sounds like you've got a handle on the needs to ensure that it's all tight and square.

Those oldies have lots of room because of the realities of the equipment from back then. The Live Wire series dates back to when there were still a few folks running tubes in their receivers. Although those were quickly being replaced by the then new and somewhat affordable transistorized sets. The hobby resounded with terms like SuperRegen and SuperHet and any RC'er had to have at least a smattering of electronics ability at their command to set up and use the radios of that time. And then there were the escapements with their rubber motors that had to be wound up every couple of flights to provide the power to move the control surfaces. Yep, those were interesting days..... I missed the escapement age and jumped in when pulse proportional was just beginning to become the way to go for single channel. I had a rudder only Sterling Command Master "brick" that would have used much of the equipment area of your Champ as my first radio. Then I got a Controlaire Galloping Ghost set as a kit that I had to assemble. That was my first real success with flying radio control.
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Old Mar 27, 2010, 06:58 PM
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SHE FLYS!!!

I got the linkages squared away and so decided to taxi it around in the school parking lot across the street. I had to put 2 2650 mah batteries in the nose to get the CG at 30%. The motor I had planned to use had probs from the previous crash in the Yak so my freind lent me a 3530 1100 KV motor. It's more power than it needs but not over kill, in fact I'm ordering the same motor for it.

So I'm driving it around and goose the power. It lifts off about 3 or 4 feet. I only have about 60-70 feet of room and get it back down without hitting anything...whew. Once I saw how stable it was I did about 5 more quick lifts. This plane will be some fun. It will lift off the ground in about 3 feet.

Just need to get everything secured for flight and put the last bit of covering on the sides. My covering Job came out pretty good for a first timer but I do have a very very slight warp in the left stab but nothing to be of concern.

Tomorrow AM will be the maiden.

I'm going to use both 2650's in parallel and should have some impressive flight time. I'm also adding an arming plug as I like to be able to arm the plane on the taxi way and disarm it there as well.

I'm uploading a short vid of the internals right now and add the link once it's finished...I use a gum cam so it's not very stable but you get the idea. Joe Vid:
tail wheel test 2.AVI (3 min 6 sec)


I'll also get some vids of the maiden.

I think I got my $35 dollors worth.
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