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Old May 28, 2010, 09:38 AM
KK6MQJ
Bajora's Avatar
Joined Sep 2004
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If anything our feedback can help matters with them.
Agreed!

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Afterall this plane hasn't even been officially released.
Not sure why folks say this? If it is available online, or was until they sold out the first batch, then isn't it "released"?
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Old May 28, 2010, 10:11 AM
You down with EPP?
johnnyrocco123's Avatar
Houston, Tx
Joined May 2009
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Originally Posted by Bajora View Post
Agreed!



Not sure why folks say this? If it is available online, or was until they sold out the first batch, then isn't it "released"?
They filled some backorders but they have never been in stock at Tower which is Electrifly's main distributor.
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Old May 28, 2010, 04:39 PM
Tim Lampe; Hobbico R&D
KRProton's Avatar
Champaign, IL
Joined Dec 2009
3,864 Posts
Gentlemen,

I wanted to let you all know that I am reading your posts and forwarding pertinent information up the line. I have also forwarded links to many of your posts directly to those concerned. Finally, I went back and re read all of the posts to compile a list of accounts of failures. Where possible, I also noted a possible reason for the failure from additional data that was provided by the person who posted. It was a tedious task, but to the best of my ability here is the list:

(1 model) Lost control/crash; (reason undetermined, pilot was using a 4S battery)
(3 models) Loose/detached firewalls; (one model had been previously crashed, no additional data was provided for the other two accounts)
(2 models) Folded wings; (first instance reports stock motor and recommended prop, but no additional or follow-information was provided, the second was using a slightly larger motor and battery).
(1 model) Mounting block for elevator servo mount came loose
(1 model) Wing mounting tab broke; (not certain of components used)
(0) Complaints/claims made to Great Planes Product Support

We read the accounts of defects/failures posted in this thread, but until the Company is contacted directly and all pertinent information has been gathered (including, likely the remains of the plane), it is difficult to determine for certain the cause of failure and any reinforcement/modification that may be necessary—not that your claims are not valid or real.

This isn’t to say all the failures are to be blamed on larger motors or batteries, but please also bear in mind the following. It is from page 6 in the instruction manual under “PRECAUTIONS”:

6. While this kit has been flight tested to exceed normal use, if the plane will be used for extremely high stress flying, such as racing, or if a motor larger than recommended is used, the modeler is responsible for taking steps to reinforce the high stress points and/or substituting hardware more suitable for the increased stress.

I do not want to appear as though we are dismissing the accounts posted in this thread. We are investigating the possibility of reinforcing the airframe if necessary, but until we hear about failures through the proper channels and have the opportunity to examine the remains we cannot draw conclusions about the precise cause of the failure. If you truly feel your model failed by no cause of your own, by all means please feel free to contact Product Support.

Sincerely,

Tim
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Old May 28, 2010, 05:57 PM
3D wing innovator
MikeRx's Avatar
Dallas, Texas
Joined Dec 2009
2,211 Posts
Nice assesment, but in summary it should be noted that that ARC motor plane was flying at stock power levels and barely over weight range, and the 4s plane was flying below stock weight and less than half throttle. And also, I gave details of my failure(s) on the SECOND plane. Loose firewall was fixed by removing, cleaning, and reinstalling 1/8" rear with light fiber "donut" surrounding it, glued in secure with PROPER thrust angle...plane came with 1 degree left. (wish id noticed before 1st takeoff)
Also, the wing failure occured with stock motor and recommended prop, balanced middle range at 19.5 oz with 2200 3s.
Also, I mentioned my first airframe was over 1/2 oz lighter, mostly in the wing.

I was a little shocked to see MORE epoxy/glass on the top side of one of my wings once i split it!!
Ive scratch built glow Q40 type speed planes at 3.5lbs and 170mph for fun, and if I was gonna rely on glass ONLY, the majority of it would be bottom center, in the stress zone. One can get away from extra glass by using carbon. Its no secret that this plane weighs 7+ oz bare when similar planes that dont break weigh about 5. I have carbon strings to this day from past projects that for about 2-3$ retail on this plane would increase tensile strenth by 100%, and leave no ridge between glass and foam. (super thin)
Oh.. and you could take out a BUNCH of epoxie/glass using this tiny bits of carbon.
Or better yet.. make it 25% larger at same weight and charge 25% more.
Anyone who spends $109 for a hot plane like this will shell out $139++ for one thats ready to rumble like a sokol or vip.. especially if it had the dimensions of a larger, costly racer.
The "masses" in this case are only experienced/advanced pilots who will pay the coin for a novel product that delivers.
Great Planes/Electrifly has the means to design and build less expensive and more user friendly racy planes... and there are better ammo motors motors sitting on the shelf (24-45,) etc. just waiting to be put to reliable 120mph duty.
Most USA hobby consumers HAVE NOT seen these in person, and would eat it up if they knew it existed in proper form.
Frankly, I think mine on 4s put all those electric speed things (1000watt++ foam wing jet thingies) that Ive seen local to shame because of its general efficency in design and superior maneuverablility.
Others agreed in the short time mine existed.
Build it and they will come...
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Old May 28, 2010, 06:36 PM
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keehopper's Avatar
Albuquerque NM
Joined Mar 2009
82 Posts
Nice attempt KRProton ! These are not your average bears flying these things out here. What it is, is what it is.....Bad engineering, testing and quality assurance. You do not manufacture planes like this and NOT know how they are going to be used. That is like building a truck and saying....I didn't think you were going to take this off road!
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Old May 28, 2010, 07:04 PM
Permission to buzz the tower?
ds-fifty's Avatar
Adelaide, South Australia
Joined Nov 2007
95 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero3803 View Post
I'm doing carbon reinforcements on mine which should hopefully lessen the chance of any failures. So far on the to-do list:

Dremel a slot for a cf spar
Reinforce the wing tab with cf cloth and epoxy
reinforce the firewall, and elevator mount if needed.

Will post pics/results as they come. Waiting for cf cloth/tape as of right now.
I will be really keen to see how to do this. Would you put the spar in from the bottom or top? Is epoxy enough to keep it in, or does it need to be reinforced with glass?

I bought mine in California as a souvenir of the trip and carried it home to Australia in carry-on luggage. I've invested too much to give up now!

PS> I only want to do circuits and fly bys, but am nervous now!
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Old May 28, 2010, 07:25 PM
3D wing innovator
MikeRx's Avatar
Dallas, Texas
Joined Dec 2009
2,211 Posts
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Originally Posted by ds-fifty View Post
I will be really keen to see how to do this. Would you put the spar in from the bottom or top? Is epoxy enough to keep it in, or does it need to be reinforced with glass?

I bought mine in California as a souvenir of the trip and carried it home to Australia in carry-on luggage. I've invested too much to give up now!

PS> I only want to do circuits and fly bys, but am nervous now!

Oh no.. dont give up..Fix tab first.
It wont take much to strenthen the wing to be able to turn hard.
Remove servo tray and draw a line(on bottom) at the aft cg range to half-span and dremel a slot barely bigger than the thin carbon rod (maybe 2-3mm), a couple mm deeper than the width of the rod. Fill with 30 min epoxy and press in.. wipe excess away with denatured alcohol. Let dry 8hrs.
For a smooth finish, leave carbon channel less than full with epoxie and once epoxie has dried for at least an hour, mix a seperate batch with and equal portion of white micro balloon dust filler and fill to even. Let dry. Sand the excess smooth. done. Ive had similar results using white balsa filler sanded smooth and hardened with thin ca.. just keep some acetone ready in case of ca runs.
I think a wick of thin ca followed by a bead of thick on the inside firewall EDGE should hold. DO NOT get any glue on the motor mounting portion!
Now go fly and tell us how you like it!
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Old May 28, 2010, 08:19 PM
Aut Viam Inveniam Aut Faciam
verticalspark's Avatar
United States, CO, Colorado Springs
Joined Oct 2008
4,100 Posts
I still want one This would make my first "plyon racer" but not my first fast plane.
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Old May 28, 2010, 09:29 PM
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kenelder's Avatar
USA, FL, St Petersburg
Joined Dec 2003
990 Posts
review the market

Hello all;

I suggest GP go to www.soaringusa.com and buy a couple of similar airframes and then try to flex their wings. Currently I'm flying a Triffik (about same size) and decided to buy a Rifle kit as a backup. When I opened the kit at my LHS, the first thing we (the store owner and I noticed) was a VERY flexible wing. He actually asked me how I was going to reinforce it berfore I flew it! Interesting that a store owner noticed the wing flex, huh?

Once home, checked my Triffik to compare, and no wing flex at all. I'm not building mine until a few more weeks go by and we see what everyone does to strengthen their airframes.

It is not hard to compare similar size airframes structurally. Even I can see that the Rifle wing is weak for the speeds noted in the instructinos.

I should point out to everyone that being built on a production line, it is always possible that wing strength differs depending on who did the wing layup. So possibly not every one has this issue. But mine sure does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Gentlemen,

I wanted to let you all know that I am reading your posts and forwarding pertinent information up the line. I have also forwarded links to many of your posts directly to those concerned. Finally, I went back and re read all of the posts to compile a list of accounts of failures. Where possible, I also noted a possible reason for the failure from additional data that was provided by the person who posted. It was a tedious task, but to the best of my ability here is the list:

(1 model) Lost control/crash; (reason undetermined, pilot was using a 4S battery)
(3 models) Loose/detached firewalls; (one model had been previously crashed, no additional data was provided for the other two accounts)
(2 models) Folded wings; (first instance reports stock motor and recommended prop, but no additional or follow-information was provided, the second was using a slightly larger motor and battery).
(1 model) Mounting block for elevator servo mount came loose
(1 model) Wing mounting tab broke; (not certain of components used)
(0) Complaints/claims made to Great Planes Product Support

We read the accounts of defects/failures posted in this thread, but until the Company is contacted directly and all pertinent information has been gathered (including, likely the remains of the plane), it is difficult to determine for certain the cause of failure and any reinforcement/modification that may be necessary—not that your claims are not valid or real.

This isn’t to say all the failures are to be blamed on larger motors or batteries, but please also bear in mind the following. It is from page 6 in the instruction manual under “PRECAUTIONS”:

6. While this kit has been flight tested to exceed normal use, if the plane will be used for extremely high stress flying, such as racing, or if a motor larger than recommended is used, the modeler is responsible for taking steps to reinforce the high stress points and/or substituting hardware more suitable for the increased stress.

I do not want to appear as though we are dismissing the accounts posted in this thread. We are investigating the possibility of reinforcing the airframe if necessary, but until we hear about failures through the proper channels and have the opportunity to examine the remains we cannot draw conclusions about the precise cause of the failure. If you truly feel your model failed by no cause of your own, by all means please feel free to contact Product Support.

Sincerely,

Tim
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Old May 28, 2010, 09:51 PM
Lifetime Member
JohnM's Avatar
Providence, RI, USA
Joined Dec 1996
2,611 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Gentlemen,

I wanted to let you all know that I am reading your posts and forwarding pertinent information up the line. I have also forwarded links to many of your posts directly to those concerned. Finally, I went back and re read all of the posts to compile a list of accounts of failures. Where possible, I also noted a possible reason for the failure from additional data that was provided by the person who posted. It was a tedious task, but to the best of my ability here is the list:

(1 model) Lost control/crash; (reason undetermined, pilot was using a 4S battery)
(3 models) Loose/detached firewalls; (one model had been previously crashed, no additional data was provided for the other two accounts)
(2 models) Folded wings; (first instance reports stock motor and recommended prop, but no additional or follow-information was provided, the second was using a slightly larger motor and battery).
(1 model) Mounting block for elevator servo mount came loose
(1 model) Wing mounting tab broke; (not certain of components used)
(0) Complaints/claims made to Great Planes Product Support

We read the accounts of defects/failures posted in this thread, but until the Company is contacted directly and all pertinent information has been gathered (including, likely the remains of the plane), it is difficult to determine for certain the cause of failure and any reinforcement/modification that may be necessary—not that your claims are not valid or real.

This isn’t to say all the failures are to be blamed on larger motors or batteries, but please also bear in mind the following. It is from page 6 in the instruction manual under “PRECAUTIONS”:

6. While this kit has been flight tested to exceed normal use, if the plane will be used for extremely high stress flying, such as racing, or if a motor larger than recommended is used, the modeler is responsible for taking steps to reinforce the high stress points and/or substituting hardware more suitable for the increased stress.

I do not want to appear as though we are dismissing the accounts posted in this thread. We are investigating the possibility of reinforcing the airframe if necessary, but until we hear about failures through the proper channels and have the opportunity to examine the remains we cannot draw conclusions about the precise cause of the failure. If you truly feel your model failed by no cause of your own, by all means please feel free to contact Product Support.

Sincerely,

Tim

If zero complaints have been received by GP, then I cannot imagine anything would get changed. Everyone that has had a legitimate failure should call GP and state the nature of their airplane's failure. Hopefully GP will not only honer a replacement but take into consideration what changes need to made to prevent future failures.

John
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Old May 28, 2010, 10:53 PM
3D wing innovator
MikeRx's Avatar
Dallas, Texas
Joined Dec 2009
2,211 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnM View Post
If zero complaints have been received by GP, then I cannot imagine anything would get changed. Everyone that has had a legitimate failure should call GP and state the nature of their airplane's failure. Hopefully GP will not only honer a replacement but take into consideration what changes need to made to prevent future failures.

John
Thanks for the consideration.
My complaints will be sent in the coming day.
Sorry, I discarded mine.. A $109 plane doesn't buy the time from me to ship, unless they were picking up.
I would be happy demonstrate with another airframe... Give me 5 minutes in the 95 degree heat and I will have another stocker folded up for ya! Just be prepared to give up an esc, battery, and motor to the earth also....
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Old May 28, 2010, 10:57 PM
Permission to buzz the tower?
ds-fifty's Avatar
Adelaide, South Australia
Joined Nov 2007
95 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRx View Post
Oh no.. dont give up..Fix tab first.
It wont take much to strenthen the wing to be able to turn hard.
Remove servo tray and draw a line(on bottom) at the aft cg range to half-span and dremel a slot barely bigger than the thin carbon rod (maybe 2-3mm), a couple mm deeper than the width of the rod. Fill with 30 min epoxy and press in.. wipe excess away with denatured alcohol. Let dry 8hrs.
For a smooth finish, leave carbon channel less than full with epoxie and once epoxie has dried for at least an hour, mix a seperate batch with and equal portion of white micro balloon dust filler and fill to even. Let dry. Sand the excess smooth. done. Ive had similar results using white balsa filler sanded smooth and hardened with thin ca.. just keep some acetone ready in case of ca runs.
I think a wick of thin ca followed by a bead of thick on the inside firewall EDGE should hold. DO NOT get any glue on the motor mounting portion!
Now go fly and tell us how you like it!
Hey thanks for that... The joy of being on this thread!
I think I'll try 3mm rod. Only half wing span distance? I would have gone for more, but I guess it's not needed.
I'll let you know how I go...
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Old May 28, 2010, 11:40 PM
Spicy Torque Roll!
volcomsnows2k's Avatar
USA, CA, Pasadena
Joined Dec 2006
1,829 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Gentlemen,

I wanted to let you all know that I am reading your posts and forwarding pertinent information up the line. I have also forwarded links to many of your posts directly to those concerned. Finally, I went back and re read all of the posts to compile a list of accounts of failures. Where possible, I also noted a possible reason for the failure from additional data that was provided by the person who posted. It was a tedious task, but to the best of my ability here is the list:

(1 model) Lost control/crash; (reason undetermined, pilot was using a 4S battery)
(3 models) Loose/detached firewalls; (one model had been previously crashed, no additional data was provided for the other two accounts)
(2 models) Folded wings; (first instance reports stock motor and recommended prop, but no additional or follow-information was provided, the second was using a slightly larger motor and battery).
(1 model) Mounting block for elevator servo mount came loose
(1 model) Wing mounting tab broke; (not certain of components used)
(0) Complaints/claims made to Great Planes Product Support

We read the accounts of defects/failures posted in this thread, but until the Company is contacted directly and all pertinent information has been gathered (including, likely the remains of the plane), it is difficult to determine for certain the cause of failure and any reinforcement/modification that may be necessary—not that your claims are not valid or real.

This isn’t to say all the failures are to be blamed on larger motors or batteries, but please also bear in mind the following. It is from page 6 in the instruction manual under “PRECAUTIONS”:

6. While this kit has been flight tested to exceed normal use, if the plane will be used for extremely high stress flying, such as racing, or if a motor larger than recommended is used, the modeler is responsible for taking steps to reinforce the high stress points and/or substituting hardware more suitable for the increased stress.

I do not want to appear as though we are dismissing the accounts posted in this thread. We are investigating the possibility of reinforcing the airframe if necessary, but until we hear about failures through the proper channels and have the opportunity to examine the remains we cannot draw conclusions about the precise cause of the failure. If you truly feel your model failed by no cause of your own, by all means please feel free to contact Product Support.

Sincerely,

Tim


Tim, I have to differ. I do not know who you have been speaking with at GP or what not. I called and spoke with a tech for more than 15 min. If you read all the posts, you will know that many of us (including me) was using all STOCK recommended electronics. I do not know how you came up with the complaints at 0. I called on Tuesday. As for folding the wings, yes they did happen to a few. Per my experience, the wing tab sheering off, tell me something. DO you think that tab should be just plain plastic? Not even a composite blend? The box reads, 90mph. The actual speed on the recommended electronics exceeds 120. You guys even have it on Radar for the video. I'm not trying to ruff any feathers here. I am a vendor and a product developer as well. I voiced I can care less if I crash a plane due to a failure. It is when the fuselage is traveling at over 110mph with no control that worries me. GP needs to take a good look and really put the wings to the test. Until then, maybe the 4.75x4.75 APC should not be the suggested propeller.

Kind Regards and Happy Flying,

Pete
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Old May 28, 2010, 11:58 PM
Lifetime Member
JohnM's Avatar
Providence, RI, USA
Joined Dec 1996
2,611 Posts
I really can't understand why they didn't add a wing spar as it would have eliminated so many potential wing failures. In my opinion they also should have marketed this as a pylon racer training plane and put a smaller, less powerful power system in it and went for an 80 MPH racer that would hold up to anything with the stock setup. An 80 mph pylon/sport plane at that low entry level cost should satisfy the majority of entry level "need for speed" flyers. A second generation with carbon fiber reinforcements could then be offered that could handle a much higher power system for a higher entry cost.

John
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Old May 29, 2010, 12:24 AM
Crashing into the sky!
jackosmeister's Avatar
Auckland NZ
Joined Aug 2007
7,390 Posts
Im not a 100% fan of the idea of dremeling a spar into the rifles wing.

All the wings strength, both in torsion and span wise, is in the glass skin (which is obviously not up to the job stock) as soon as you cut the glass skin youve massively weakened and already weak wing. The Carbon will add some rigidity back into it span wise, but the wing will be weaker over all.

The only proper way to fix it would be too sand all the paint off, rout out a strip in the lower surface, lay some carbon tow, then reglass it over the top, then vac bag the wing without warping it.

They need to lay it up properly in the factory.
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