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Old Apr 04, 2011, 05:22 PM
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Virginia Beach, Virginia, United States
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Thanks Tim I will check that out. I am on a trip. Out dodging thunderstorms in a CRJ til thursday. I hope to adjust the elevator on Friday and give her another go this weekend.

Tyler



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Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Hey Tyler,

I just updated my blog and posted how to perfect the elevator hookup with several images.

Hope this helps.

Tim
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Thanks for the comprehensive writeup Boris.
It's an exciting little bird to fly, couldn't help gushing. If people are anything like me, they often hit the first few/last few pages in these threads so there was alot of review I threw in. I'd like to say I read all 2000+ posts but whose got the time. The precision of it's flight characteristics is what I really enjoy with the all composite frame.

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Originally Posted by oly_rcer View Post
nice boris,glad to see it's flying well for you and you are having fun with it.i love my little hotrod with a mega motor,don't need it but really like having it.keep up the good reports
oly
Yeah the 16/15/X is on the most wanted list, quick access was not that easy unfortunately. I have to get in line and wait for those speed crazy Czech's to build me one I guess.
Are any of those known to work well with 4s?
I have to find the best way to get more MAH in this bird before I think about 600 + watts. I have other birds good for pure speed, Stryker's etc, I'm trying to find the right balance with prop and motor efficiency. Probably a 4S with 110-120 MPH avg flight speed with some decent flight time. With the ability to double the watts at command and hit 160mph to wake things up. Got reinforcing to do before then though, I don't need to snap my wings off when so many other's were so kind to do it before me and share.

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Originally Posted by MikeRx View Post
Congratulations.
Sounds like your "educated" approach has paid off.
My FIRST flight with a rifle was 1000mah 4s on the 3180 ammo and 4.1 prop at 33k+ and 31amps, 17 oz auw, and 130+ mph. I was hooked from the first turn!

The Eflight motor adds 1/2 oz to the nose. Rear placement of the esc will be needed to free up room for the battery placed rearward to get the cg corrected.

I cant imagine much increase in speed from the eflight on a 4.75 and 3s given the low KV. The beauty is being able to to WOT without warming up.
4s is a viable option.. Id like to see some real numbers on that Eflight.. amps, watts, rpms, etc. I may be able to get a DEAL on one and I have small 4s to work with..
hehe, never even considered 4S on that 3180 that was already on fire. It must of cooked though, in more ways than one.

For some reason I haven't gotten the ESC in the back yet which seems it would help much, wires are a bit short to the motor. Ive tried several other configurations, even a side mount in the center opposite the elevator linkage which was ok except too many wires swirled around the aileron area and I don't want to be one of those that 'mysteriously' loses aileron control. I guess I just have to really attack this fuse like a crewman living on a submarine, use every little bit of space, and tie every wire down. Too bad the nose is so long, the motor sits way out too far for these 28mm even if it is only .4 oz more. I think someone saw that coming in like post 2 or 3 in this thread. This bird wasn't designed for the weight we are tossing into it these days though.

I have a Castle Ice, so I can at least get some static tests done today on a couple props and provide some "real" numbers as in a castle log. I do it for myself anyway, might as well share. I'll probably have an ICE 50 lite soon in the Rifle. If I place it in the back that will end my CG problems but it's a bit heavier than the Thunderbird 54. Know of any better ESC considerations with minimal weight/height/ & 4s capable?

There was no speed increase from the 2700 on 3s which is to be expected, as you said though being able to do WOT and come down and have the back of the motor shaft cool to the touch has it's own rewards. I lost a bit of speed, especially in the dives, but it get's there in level flight faster with a bit more torque and power to come out of high bank turns as you know. The 4S is really where this six series should come alive, it's apparently the most efficient voltage on this motor although I can't confirm that personally yet. It's not rated for 4s but it's pretty well known to be capable. I'm looking forward to 3s/4s testing on the bench shortly with 65c rated 4S batts., I may even include thrust numbers even though the props stall.
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 12:24 PM
Tim Lampe; Hobbico R&D
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Champaign, IL
Joined Dec 2009
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HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

Just came back from testing some other planes and snuck in a quick maiden of Rifle #5 (#2 of 2 of the ones I just painted). Has same MEGA 16/15/2, T-Bird 54, APC 4.1 x 4.1. Weighs 20.5 oz with Hyperion 3S 35C.

Winds are a good 15-ish, possibly 20mph. This maid the launch easy. (Of course, the landing was just about right at my feet!)

I actually had to throttle back to get her trimmed, but it didn't need much.

But the main point of this post is to appeal to everybody to be very careful flying this thing with this kind of setup. I've flown my other Rifles many times last summer with 600+ Watts, but as this was only about my third flight this year at this speed I'm still not quite used to it yet. Maybe because the motor is new or something else this one seems even faster.

Anyway, this thing is super-ultra fast. I'd have to say it was doing 180mph - 190mph down wind (but in actuality, maybe not THAT fast).

This is SERIOUS business. Around 350W is the "sweet spot" for the Rifle and 600W+ is a whole other game.

I don't recommend anyone flying this setup until they get used to 350W, then 400 - 450W.

Boris, I'll sell you one of my MEGAs. I bought the two used ones for $100.00, so how about $60.00 shipping included. They both look good, but haven't tested or run them yet.

Shoot me a PM if interested.

Tim
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 04:48 PM
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MikeRx's Avatar
Dallas, Texas
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBoris View Post
It's an exciting little bird to fly, couldn't help gushing. If people are anything like me, they often hit the first few/last few pages in these threads so there was alot of review I threw in. I'd like to say I read all 2000+ posts but whose got the time. The precision of it's flight characteristics is what I really enjoy with the all composite frame.



Yeah the 16/15/X is on the most wanted list, quick access was not that easy unfortunately. I have to get in line and wait for those speed crazy Czech's to build me one I guess.
Are any of those known to work well with 4s?
I have to find the best way to get more MAH in this bird before I think about 600 + watts. I have other birds good for pure speed, Stryker's etc, I'm trying to find the right balance with prop and motor efficiency. Probably a 4S with 110-120 MPH avg flight speed with some decent flight time. With the ability to double the watts at command and hit 160mph to wake things up. Got reinforcing to do before then though, I don't need to snap my wings off when so many other's were so kind to do it before me and share.



hehe, never even considered 4S on that 3180 that was already on fire. It must of cooked though, in more ways than one.

For some reason I haven't gotten the ESC in the back yet which seems it would help much, wires are a bit short to the motor. Ive tried several other configurations, even a side mount in the center opposite the elevator linkage which was ok except too many wires swirled around the aileron area and I don't want to be one of those that 'mysteriously' loses aileron control. I guess I just have to really attack this fuse like a crewman living on a submarine, use every little bit of space, and tie every wire down. Too bad the nose is so long, the motor sits way out too far for these 28mm even if it is only .4 oz more. I think someone saw that coming in like post 2 or 3 in this thread. This bird wasn't designed for the weight we are tossing into it these days though.

I have a Castle Ice, so I can at least get some static tests done today on a couple props and provide some "real" numbers as in a castle log. I do it for myself anyway, might as well share. I'll probably have an ICE 50 lite soon in the Rifle. If I place it in the back that will end my CG problems but it's a bit heavier than the Thunderbird 54. Know of any better ESC considerations with minimal weight/height/ & 4s capable?

There was no speed increase from the 2700 on 3s which is to be expected, as you said though being able to do WOT and come down and have the back of the motor shaft cool to the touch has it's own rewards. I lost a bit of speed, especially in the dives, but it get's there in level flight faster with a bit more torque and power to come out of high bank turns as you know. The 4S is really where this six series should come alive, it's apparently the most efficient voltage on this motor although I can't confirm that personally yet. It's not rated for 4s but it's pretty well known to be capable. I'm looking forward to 3s/4s testing on the bench shortly with 65c rated 4S batts., I may even include thrust numbers even though the props stall.

What make and capacity 65c are you testing?
Ive run the Ice 50 light placed rearward where the reciever normally goes.
Its a big esc, but it can take all you can get out of a rifle. I have used the Electrifly SS 25 and 35 amp esc without issues on 4s. The 35 can take lots of amps, is thin and light, and has long leads with connectors installed.
I did cook the Ammo, but it happened on 3s, 4.75".
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!!

Just came back from testing some other planes and snuck in a quick maiden of Rifle #5 (#2 of 2 of the ones I just painted). Has same MEGA 16/15/2, T-Bird 54, APC 4.1 x 4.1. Weighs 20.5 oz with Hyperion 3S 35C.

Winds are a good 15-ish, possibly 20mph. This maid the launch easy. (Of course, the landing was just about right at my feet!)

I actually had to throttle back to get her trimmed, but it didn't need much.

But the main point of this post is to appeal to everybody to be very careful flying this thing with this kind of setup. I've flown my other Rifles many times last summer with 600+ Watts, but as this was only about my third flight this year at this speed I'm still not quite used to it yet. Maybe because the motor is new or something else this one seems even faster.

Anyway, this thing is super-ultra fast. I'd have to say it was doing 180mph - 190mph down wind (but in actuality, maybe not THAT fast).

This is SERIOUS business. Around 350W is the "sweet spot" for the Rifle and 600W+ is a whole other game.

I don't recommend anyone flying this setup until they get used to 350W, then 400 - 450W.

Boris, I'll sell you one of my MEGAs. I bought the two used ones for $100.00, so how about $60.00 shipping included. They both look good, but haven't tested or run them yet.

Shoot me a PM if interested.

Tim
haha, I know how you feel. Well, sort of. When I tested that 4S in that first video, I was hitting 145mph flat from 400-450 watts according to doppler. It woke me up when going over 160mph in a dive that's not in the video, I had to stretch the pull out to protect the wings so much it was a close one. Just as your mind has to adjust to flying a stock Rifle, by flying ahead of it by being good enough with the sticks to put it where you want it before it get's there. Like, if you have to fly by waiting to see where it ends up after stick input, well that's too late. At 450 watts that even takes on a different level, hard to believe but yeah it's serious business. I won't have a problem admitting being a bit freaked of 160mph.

When pushing the frame in high G turns, I keep trying to remind myself to watch my flight path, should the fuselage become a missile. After 5 flight days of gradual testing and growing it is holding up at it's rated levels and I have been pushing it.

Edit: I'll PM you. Thanks for the offer.
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 08:08 PM
what ya mean i have to land?
DesMoines,Wa
Joined Feb 2008
1,318 Posts
boris,you might want to take tim up on the mega motor,once you try it you wont go back.only problem i have with my mega rifle is it scares the bejesus out of me and takes me 1/2 hr after flight just to quit shakingi'm running the mega 16/15/2 with a 60a ecs and a 3s 1800 40c batt.balances nice and like i said,scares me something awful,but really fun
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeRx View Post
What make and capacity 65c are you testing?
Ive run the Ice 50 light placed rearward where the reciever normally goes.
Its a big esc, but it can take all you can get out of a rifle. I have used the Electrifly SS 25 and 35 amp esc without issues on 4s. The 35 can take lots of amps, is thin and light, and has long leads with connectors installed.
I did cook the Ammo, but it happened on 3s, 4.75".
Pictures speak louder than words, just arrived today. Hope to test tonight on the bench.



It was begging to be tested in this application, rated for 84.5 Amps cont., 169 Amps burst.
Sure TP's are expensive, going really fast is expensive. Someone has to pay for R&D I guess. As we know, (voltage X KV = RPM) so having a battery that can hold voltage without droop like a TP or Hyperion is nice in a performance plane. Plus while I don't expect 65c, TP's and Hyperion's are usually closer than many others. I'm one of those weird people that store's his Lipo's at 50-60% overnight, etc. I got a 720i that does a good job and I log all my cell charging and can give the batteries TLC. Plus I look to charge at about 10 amps, even though it is rated up to 12c charge rate (16 amps). Much to like if they last close to the promised cycles.

Dimensions are what attracted me to the 4S 1350, with a height of only 24mm.
24H x 31W x 98L
Edit: 144 grams
Their next step up the 4S 1800mah is 33mm high, quite the jump but I didn't want to risk it since the ESC is still in the nose. I was thinking in terms of a thin ESC, but now I think I will try and move it around again. The battery that actually arrived measured at the most 24.5H, 32W, 101L (black cover)
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 08:15 PM
Tim Lampe; Hobbico R&D
KRProton's Avatar
Champaign, IL
Joined Dec 2009
3,763 Posts
Boris,

Try your turnarounds like this...(open the pdf on this link):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1747
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Old Apr 05, 2011, 10:45 PM
Boggy
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Australia, NSW, Sydney
Joined Oct 2006
88 Posts
Hey Tim,

What current are you pulling on the Mega 16/15/2 with 4.1 x 4.1
Just curious as eCalc rates around the 50A mark.. I thought the Mega's max current was just below 40A ?

I would love this setup.. Sounds like a rocket..

Cheers

Boggy
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 05:53 AM
Tim Lampe; Hobbico R&D
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Champaign, IL
Joined Dec 2009
3,763 Posts
Hey Boggy,

go to my blog and check it out. I posted a spreadsheet with rpm, static current and some in-flight current readings for many motors I've flown or just tested on the ground.

Anyway, with a Hyperion 1800 35C (3S of course) I pull about 60A on the ground. Based on what typically happens with this kind of setup, the in-flight current is usually about 30% less. Based on that I'm drawing about 42A in the air.

That's over the current limit for this motor, but from what I've learned from some of the other guys that post frequently in the "High Performance" forums, the MEGA can take it and then some. I've got at least around 40 flights on my MEGA flown WOT the entire flight and this motor is holding up suberbly and doesn't come down very hot at all.

That's what you get with an exceptionally high quality motor as I have come to learn.
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 09:24 AM
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Dallas, Texas
Joined Dec 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MadBoris View Post
Pictures speak louder than words, just arrived today. Hope to test tonight on the bench.



It was begging to be tested in this application, rated for 84.5 Amps cont., 169 Amps burst.
Sure TP's are expensive, going really fast is expensive. Someone has to pay for R&D I guess. As we know, (voltage X KV = RPM) so having a battery that can hold voltage without droop like a TP or Hyperion is nice in a performance plane. Plus while I don't expect 65c, TP's and Hyperion's are usually closer than many others. I'm one of those weird people that store's his Lipo's at 50-60% overnight, etc. I got a 720i that does a good job and I log all my cell charging and can give the batteries TLC. Plus I look to charge at about 10 amps, even though it is rated up to 12c charge rate (16 amps). Much to like if they last close to the promised cycles.

Dimensions are what attracted me to the 4S 1350, with a height of only 24mm.
24H x 31W x 98L
Edit: 144 grams
Their next step up the 4S 1800mah is 33mm high, quite the jump but I didn't want to risk it since the ESC is still in the nose. I was thinking in terms of a thin ESC, but now I think I will try and move it around again. The battery that actually arrived measured at the most 24.5H, 32W, 101L (black cover)
Thats awesome! I didnt know these sizes where available.
A Mega 3000kv and 4.75" with my 1.2 oz esc would be a killer lightish combo!
The Eflight six should pull barely enough to warm up these packs
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeRx View Post
Thats awesome! I didnt know these sizes where available.
A Mega 3000kv and 4.75" with my 1.2 oz esc would be a killer lightish combo!
The Eflight six should pull barely enough to warm up these packs
Yeah, I thought so too.
At a 15.2 volt droop (3.8 per cell) that is 45,000 RPM theoretical. Over 200 MPH pitch speed, theoretically. You may not come close to that theoretical number, but these particular planes can even exceed pitch speed easily in dives. These planes are some of the best of closing in on their pitch speed due to being so slippery. That will rip the stock plane apart, and the fiberglass may not have it to give structurally anyway.
Extreme's like that IMO probably need Kevlar/ Carbon Fiber weave reinforcement, at least they will in my rig if and when. At the least some highly rated Carbon tow/tape. Any pylon's getting close to the 160 and expected to handle some G's are reinforced beyond fiberglass. I'm expecting great things from 4S on these batteries. Even with good eyesight I am finding the plane a bit too small to want to try break speed records, it takes a few milliseconds to lose it and not get it back at those speeds. At this size it appears smaller to our minds and our reality of flying it. "If the wing span of the larger plane is twice the smaller, then the time it takes the larger plane to travel one wing span is 41% longer than the smaller. Although it is actually flying 41% faster, it looks 41% slower. That is a big difference." - smaller looks faster and perception equals reality in this case when it comes to controlling this small and fast looking thing. I may be able to control a 40" plane at 200MPH ok but that doesn't automatically mean that it would be as easy with something as small as 30", even though the speed hasn't changed the way our mind perceives it does and we would have to change our methods on several levels, you hit limits of human sight quickly. My 3d perception suffers greatly with this tiny guy at certain orientations, just not enough light getting to both our eyes I guess to where the mind can distinguish the focal point properly.
http://www.rcsoaringdigest.com/SquareCube.html


It's more fun to keep this plane around, that is why I am advancing a bit slowly, testing it's limits and then finding mine. There is plenty to enjoy in flying along as speed slowly increases. I'm taking Tim's suggested stage by stage approach because the Six Series will absolutely come alive with these batts at 450-500 watts expected at least. Knowing that 300 watts gives us about 120-125 MPH in level flight we can start to extrapolate things mathematically from here to get an idea of what speed certain watts would provide on this frame. The cubed relationship of power to speed should help us determine what a given amount of watts should yield in speed.

EXAMPLE OF Cubic relationship of power and speed: To fly 10% faster which is 1.10 times the speed; 1.10 X 1.10 X1.10 = 1.30.
So 30% more power is needed to fly 10% faster.

To look at it the other way. How much will 450 watts yield over 300 watts in speed knowing this frame does about 125 mph level at around 300 watts ?
(that 300 figure is close but not confirmed, let's assume it for the purposes of this)

I'm increasing watts about 50% (partly due to weak 3s batteries). Normally, all things being equal, 4s over 3s should yield closer to 1/3 increase in power ever the 3s.

So then 50 (percent increase in watts) /3 (cubed relationship) = 16 percent increase in speed. 125mph + 16% = 145mph. 145mph is the estimated increase in speed with 450 watts. 50% more watts only yields 20 mph increase, this grows quickly from here.

600 watts (in terms of a Mega or Neu motor) is double 300 watts so:
100 /3 = 33
125mph + 33% = 166mph estimated

There are other variables like batts/props & pitch ratio obviously but it's a good rule of thumb from what I have seen, Thx to Gryphon for repeating it.

150MPH flat is expected on the six-series with these batts. It should also allow me longer flight time, with reduced current at 100-120 MPH avg speed. Also, if I am happy with the same flight time as my 3S 1300, I will get about 10% more speed at the same amp draw with the same flight time. As long as a motor can handle increased voltage, it's ratings usually dictate this pretty clearly without ambiguity, but in the six series other people's experience seems to dictate it is quite capable and even more efficient with 4 cells. At that time, having the benefits of less amp draw for the same watts is appealing to me.

I didn't get these batts to try and surpass a 40A draw in order to keep them from puffing, I got the highest amp pusher I could find because my experience shows me the extra amps do provide more umph, and this is a speed frame plane after all. I also buy for some longevity, it's for down the road with my next motor beyond the six series which will have more draw too. As well as the voltage won't sag, which is an obvious benefit. The weight was close to a 3S 1550 I had so it's not a bad way to go.

4S was a weak market before in this MAH range but it is picking up. I see it as possibly an emerging sweet spot with the right motor combo for this 400 size pylon but I have more testing to do.
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by KRProton View Post
Boris,

Try your turnarounds like this...(open the pdf on this link):

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...postcount=1747
This was very valuable to me on my first flights, and still today it's my main go to. This was one of those great tips you posted that I found prior to maiden. I actually tested it and got myself used to it in a simulator and refined it at about the 125mph expected speed (on a different plane), so when it came time to maiden it was my 'goto' turn. After several flight days, I am now starting to see where I can start making this little plane my own with my flight style. It's good for keeping that plane in a safe flight path when doing initial testing for sure too.

Speaking of sims, I got Realflight not to long ago, I was happy with Pheonix for a long time and still am. I just wanted to broaden out. After getting the rifle I broke down to get Expansion 7, after a lengthy internal argument to buy an expansion for one plane mainly. I figured if $40 can really help this plane then it's worth it. I was pretty blown away actually. The flight dynamic of the Rifle is impressive in the sim and really close to real, except for takeoff and landings. Plus i can change battery/motor configurations and try 160 MPH in that beforehand. Which I do. There is no question it helped me on consecutive flights, in finding and knowing my limits in a sim so it allowed me to grow in confidence quicker with the plane. Especially since I fly at my own home field in the sim, it's a user made download for free. It's the closest RC simulator experience I have had yet because everything is mimic'd so closely that I can practice like I play. Maybe others would find it helpful for their first flights, I sure did with a fast beast like this.
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Old Apr 06, 2011, 06:12 PM
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Some new video of fun flying

A couple days ago I shot some video I thought was worth sharing. This is my fifth day out flying on another beautiful blue sky. I started getting comfortable in letting her get a bit wild and that was my plan this day, fly a little close to the edge. She let her hair down, raised her skirt a bit and she started purposefully teasing with our ancient arch nemesis, the ground.

Just a bit of aggressive fun flying, aggressive for me at this stage with about 25 flights on my first pylon. I could get a bit aggressive when I had opportunity at the club field when traffic was low. Afterall, they are doing pylon races here this weekend so this nothing. This is probably the best and worst of it. I fly pretty aggressively but this was a bit more random and purposely lower to the ground than usual, fun for me. I'm just starting to play with this plane and learn it's loop height's, etc.

This is still a 3S on the 2700KV six series. Not too slow, not too fast yet, but it was fun flying. Mix of 4.75x4.75 and 5x5 prop.

Upcoming attractions:

:11 My first lazy throw that almost ended in a crash on takeoff. I have had good success until this woke me up. I threw at too high an angle and too soft and stalled it. If you were ever curious what a Nebraska swine sounds like during mating, tune in here. Don't ask me how I know.

1:36 My first real close call to a big mistake, I went to bank with hard aileron and pull hard elevator to turn but my brain interrupted me and said stop you are upside down. I rolled too far and was about to bury it, my brain stopped my thumbs this time, reaction time is getting better.

1:52 hard 3.5 mm elevator pull at decent speed. Stayed level. no biggie.

3:12 Trimmed shrubs, I could hear it at the time, it's how we do grounds-keeping at our field.

5:32 This is the instructional part of the video: How to trim your prop in mid flight and land dead stick. She's fine, no wounds.

This is about the best and worst of it, it was just plain fun.
1920p
Letting The Rifle Out (6 min 13 sec)
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Old Apr 07, 2011, 12:48 AM
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Nice flying, Boris!
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