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Old Mar 04, 2010, 12:35 AM
Z-8
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Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
You want thrust on your plane? Howd ya like a 1:1.7 weight to thrust ratio? Howd ya like to do it with less amps than it's taking you to get the 1:1.1 with that Super Tiger?

Stick a GWS 11x7 HD prop on that plane and with a 3s Li-Po on the stock motor, you'll get 50 ounces of thrust. Now THAT is some serious vertical for about 24 amps of current from the stock motor.
Even better, I've put the same prop on both engines and the ST .10 vastly outperforms the stock motor. I've flown a lot of different props on both, there is no comparison in T:W.

More important than the higher T is the lower W. The ST .10 gives more thrust with 35% less weight. Less tangibly, is where the weight is saved. More weight on the CG obviously impacts thrust required, but is theoretically meaningless when it comes to rotating the aircraft since the plane rotates on the CG. Weight on end of the CG seesaw is the worst place to stick it, because the long moment arm has to be countered with aerodynamic force not in proportion to the weight gain, but the weight times the distance from the CG.

The motor-end of the CG seesaw already suffers from the highest concentration of mass. Obviously, if you could create an ideal airplane, there would be no imbalance off the CG, all the weight would be spread uniformly and close to the CG so the aerodynamic surfaces would have the moment arm advantage.

Basically, that's why the biggest motor in the world isn't bolted onto every airplane in the world. It goes beyond pure cost and weight and thrust and fuel, there is usually some equally interesting requirement to maneuver and land.
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 01:47 AM
sKrude up, Rejected!
DogFly.'s Avatar
United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Jun 2008
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Z-8,
I've read all your hype on that motor, I mean you've been pushing on the Trojan thread for days.
You have a post count of 39, most of it hyping the ST 10 motor!
You state it's cheaper(by $1 with my HC platinum discount), yet you still need to upgrade the esc.
The TGY 3536c has been tested by many rcgroups members and has been proven to give a major power upgrade w/40a esc, and 11x7e prop!
I don't understand why you feel the need to keep pushing this motor,
maybe you should open a thread, that way we don't need to keep reading all about the ST motor.
Have you ever gone for speed, try a 10x10 on the 3536, oh wait, the ST can't handle a prop that size!...


Sorry if I went overboard, but some people may find themselves disappointed if they invest in the motor you are recommending.

Just checked you have 28 of your 39 posts pushing this motor
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Last edited by DogFly.; Mar 04, 2010 at 01:50 AM. Reason: added the last line
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 04:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Z-8 View Post
Even better, I've put the same prop on both engines and the ST .10 vastly outperforms the stock motor. I've flown a lot of different props on both, there is no comparison in T:W.

More important than the higher T is the lower W. The ST .10 gives more thrust with 35% less weight. Less tangibly, is where the weight is saved. More weight on the CG obviously impacts thrust required, but is theoretically meaningless when it comes to rotating the aircraft since the plane rotates on the CG. Weight on end of the CG seesaw is the worst place to stick it, because the long moment arm has to be countered with aerodynamic force not in proportion to the weight gain, but the weight times the distance from the CG.

The motor-end of the CG seesaw already suffers from the highest concentration of mass. Obviously, if you could create an ideal airplane, there would be no imbalance off the CG, all the weight would be spread uniformly and close to the CG so the aerodynamic surfaces would have the moment arm advantage.

Basically, that's why the biggest motor in the world isn't bolted onto every airplane in the world. It goes beyond pure cost and weight and thrust and fuel, there is usually some equally interesting requirement to maneuver and land.
That's the best technical explanation of absolutely nothing I've seen in quite some time.

The bottom line is that this motor is a nice 200 watt motor, but nothing even close to what the manufacturer is claiming for this 'miracle motor'.

Chuck
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 09:00 AM
Z-8
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Originally Posted by DogFly. View Post
Z-8,
I've read all your hype on that motor, I mean you've been pushing on the Trojan thread for days.
You have a post count of 39, most of it hyping the ST 10 motor!
You state it's cheaper(by $1 with my HC platinum discount), yet you still need to upgrade the esc.
The TGY 3536c has been tested by many rcgroups members and has been proven to give a major power upgrade w/40a esc, and 11x7e prop!
I don't understand why you feel the need to keep pushing this motor,
maybe you should open a thread, that way we don't need to keep reading all about the ST motor.
Have you ever gone for speed, try a 10x10 on the 3536, oh wait, the ST can't handle a prop that size!...


Sorry if I went overboard, but some people may find themselves disappointed if they invest in the motor you are recommending.

Just checked you have 28 of your 39 posts pushing this motor
Ah, I see now. You both object to the merits of the ST to rationalize your choice of an expensive even heavier solution. Yes, a 3 pound version of the F-104 is one way to go.

My intent experimenting with the ST .10 was to discover if it could serve as a drop-in, $24 total upgrade cost overall improvement for the T-28. I wasn't expecting 1.1:1 nor the significant improvement in handling. But when you fly the lighter nose you realize that the chunky, low power-to-weight stock motor is responsible for some areas where the T-28 falls short of perfection.

Some tolerable, but less than ideal traits of the heavy stock motor:

- High glide speeds to hold up the nose
- Nose-slide down and into slow pattern turns
- Fast, flat landings w/battered nose gears
- Higher takeoff ground speed on dainty gear
- Increased weight of flaps to mitigate all of the above
- Nose fall-off during consecutive rolls
- Nose fall-off during during consecutive the tops
- Nose fall-off on a knife edge
- Nose fall-off at the top of vertical maneuvers
- Occasional reluctance of the aircraft to get onto its back
- Sloppy inverted flight
- Broken engine mounts
- Stressed forward fuselage
- Reduced flying time

...to name a few.

Some of those are beyond the T-28's obvious mission, but some are not. The ST is not a panacea that makes an already excellent flyer perfect, but it is a leap in the right direction.

So it would be nice if you both would be considerate and not pester posters who actually do "get it" and might chose a different route than you have chosen.
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Z-8 View Post

So it would be nice if you both would be considerate and not pester posters who actually do "get it" and might chose a different route than you have chosen.
Hi Z-8,

My only purpose here is to learn new things, and help as many newcomers as possible to the hobby. If, along the way, I see a 200 watt motor being highly touted as a good replacement for the 300 watt motor that the Corsair and Trojan already come with, then I am going to warn the prospective victims of the misrepresented motor that the data supplied by the guy pushing this motor is highly suspect.

Chuck
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 09:13 AM
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USA, FL, Green Cove Springs
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C'mon, guys! Could you take your motor discussion/debate/fight/pissing match outside?

To the original poster - take a look at the ESC. If it has blue anodized cooling fins exposed, it is the old 25 amp ESC. The ESC itself is fine, but cannot deal with the current draw of the servos. So, you can either add in a UBEC, or replace the ESC.
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 09:16 AM
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C'mon, guys! Could you take your motor discussion/debate/fight/pissing match outside?
Please use the ignore button for posts you'd rather not read....
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 11:32 AM
Z-8
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Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
Hi Z-8,

My only purpose here is to learn new things, and help as many newcomers as possible to the hobby. If, along the way, I see a 200 watt motor being highly touted as a good replacement for the 300 watt motor that the Corsair and Trojan already come with, then I am going to warn the prospective victims of the misrepresented motor that the data supplied by the guy pushing this motor is highly suspect.

Chuck
Ok already, you've warned people that Super Tigre is lying about their motor, it's not 375 Watts it's 200. And e-flite power meters showing Super Tigre's spec is conservative don't work either. And all the flyers using the motor, claiming a performance increase right in line with the ST and e-flite spec, are also wrong. And that the best motor for the T-28 is a 5 hp Briggs & Stratton with a 22" lawn blade. I hear you.

For non-conscientious objectors to all out fun:

Don't hesitate to drop in the tiny ST .10 for a huge all-around performance increase that's tips the register a total of 24 bones. If you keep the stock ESC, be sure to prop it in the vicinity of 10 x 6, and tape your foam hinges so all that peals off is paint.
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 01:00 PM
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Hi Z-8,

I see you're new here to RC Groups, so maybe it's best I tell you how we operate for the most part here.

To keep everything on the up and up, whenever claims are made about anything, and I do mean anything.... there is a whole army of guys who will demand proof of the validity of those claims. It's not done out of meanness, or a desire to argue. Please believe that!

I learned this early on myself, as did most of us who post here. They raked me over the coals more than once! But thats how we all learn and spread the good information that is found here on RC Groups that one just can't find anywhere else.

So please don't take any of this as an attack on you, or as a personal matter. We're all in this together....

Take care,

Chuck
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 03:41 PM
Z-8
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Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
Hi Z-8,

I see you're new here to RC Groups, so maybe it's best I tell you how we operate for the most part here.

To keep everything on the up and up, whenever claims are made about anything, and I do mean anything.... there is a whole army of guys who will demand proof of the validity of those claims. It's not done out of meanness, or a desire to argue. Please believe that!

I learned this early on myself, as did most of us who post here. They raked me over the coals more than once! But thats how we all learn and spread the good information that is found here on RC Groups that one just can't find anywhere else.

So please don't take any of this as an attack on you, or as a personal matter. We're all in this together....

Take care,

Chuck
I'm about as new to RC flying as Jimmy Carter is to the Presidency, almost as long as I've been flying 1:1 scale, I had a few Super Tigre's back then too. I have been out of the hobby-side of flying for a while, this whole "invention of electricity" thing is really cool and way better than the old days of lugging round window cranks on gas cans. It's nice to see ST is still making tough, high performance, affordable engines.

I have no affiliation (though I think one of you said your last name is Turnigy) but I do appreciate and acknowledge higher performance stuff for the money. From what I've seen, measured, and flown, their new line of electrics set a high standard in thrust-to-weight-to-quality-to-price.

That's a good thing for everyone. Even if one tester got it completely wrong, had a bum sample, bum equipment, bum technique, or an some other agenda to conclude that the company lies about their specs. Take it from me, they aren't lying. I think you are right, the key is actually flying it before you tell everyone who is flying it that they are wrong.

So misinformed accusations aside, anyone who wants a great performing $24 upgrade would be wise to jump on an ST .10 for their T-28. It makes the airplane far more capable, even more of a joy to fly, and a better trainer in this newbie's opinion.
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-8 View Post

So misinformed accusations aside, anyone who wants a great performing $24 upgrade would be wise to jump on an ST .10 for their T-28. It makes the airplane far more capable, even more of a joy to fly, and a better trainer in this newbie's opinion.
And with that said, We'll just have to act like gentlemen, and agree to disagree...

Chuck
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Old Mar 04, 2010, 04:19 PM
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Park Zone T-28D

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Originally Posted by ugly john View Post
The massive T-28 thread is in the Park Flyer area...

The only ESC issue was on the early versions of the plane that came with a 25 amp model. The problem was that the plane was supposed to have only 1 digital servo installed, but 2 were installed during manufacture, which increased the amp draw to the point where the old linear BEC couldn't cope.
I bought the Air Force T-28D and have issues with the speed controller. It is very sensitive to the arming process. I took five people to try it and one person finalyy got it to work. Then when I got home to repaet excatly what was shown, it did not work. Everything beeped properly but no turn on the motor. It has never seen the sky. I am swamping out the factory speed controller for a Castle Thunderbird 35 amp ESC. I hope to have better luck.
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Old Mar 05, 2010, 01:37 AM
Bradley
Chalmette,LA. Sometimes underwater. 9ft to be exact.
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Wow! Didn't expect to have 3 pages of replies!

When I signed onto the forum tonight and noticed that I had three pages of replies, I was thrilled. I thought I would have a bunch of different opinions and answers to my question. Boy was I wrong. Nah J/K anyway I did check the plane and it is the 25 amp esc but I called Park Zone and they told me to send in the esc that it came with and they would send me the new 30 amp free of cost. I thought that was cool. So thats what I'm gonna do for now and eventually upgrade to the TURNIGY 35-36 with New Esc. Thanks for all the replies.
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Old Mar 05, 2010, 08:22 AM
Baa baa baa *thump!*
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USA, FL, Green Cove Springs
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Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
Please use the ignore button for posts you'd rather not read....
I'd rather not do that - I have no desire to ignore everything you guys have to say. My only beef was that the thread was massively hijacked, strayed way off topic from the original question, and was getting rather heated.

I am glad to see that you guys have worked it out.

And OP - very glad to see Horizon is taking good care of you.
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Old Mar 05, 2010, 09:44 PM
sKrude up, Rejected!
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Originally Posted by grem62483 View Post
When I signed onto the forum tonight and noticed that I had three pages of replies, I was thrilled. I thought I would have a bunch of different opinions and answers to my question. Boy was I wrong. Nah J/K anyway I did check the plane and it is the 25 amp esc but I called Park Zone and they told me to send in the esc that it came with and they would send me the new 30 amp free of cost. I thought that was cool. So thats what I'm gonna do for now and eventually upgrade to the TURNIGY 35-36 with New Esc. Thanks for all the replies.
I would recomend you add a 40a esc or better, I've been running an 11x7e with that combo!
Great vertical, but will burn off a battery quickly at WOT.
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