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Old Sep 07, 2010, 03:58 PM
Sink Stinks
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Orange County, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Perkins View Post
Here in the states, the emphasis on light weight has always been an unnecessary sales game. For the TD work most of you guys do, you're not going to miss your times because of 3 or 4 ounces. (Or even 8 or 9 ounces for that matter) That is NOT the difference.
So then it MUST be the color then, correct?

I cannot think of any other possible explanation if it's not weight that keeps me from making my times
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 03:59 PM
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R.M. Gellart's Avatar
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Agree with DP on two counts, weight in this case the spread will not be even noticeable, and Tom works hard to bring this stuff in. In my case, if I was going to buy a new airframe to replace the dead one, I might even go glass as Tom pointed out, all we fly is MOM here and it would be nice at times. I have seen one D-Tube and the center panel weighed almost exactly what my carbon one did, but the tips were about an ounce lighter. With Tragi, I am not worrying about it holding up, as Tom told me once, full carbon has more to do with skin integrity than overall strength.

The ship is a great design, wish I was willing to spill the money again, but at this point I can buy already to go ships for so much less, that I have given up on the "newest, lightest, greatest", just am not going to go down that road anymore.

Marc

And Bill, in your case, there are so many things that could be possibilities...
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 04:51 PM
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belouder's Avatar
Seattle
Joined Aug 2005
371 Posts
One thing to note in the "Chasing the weight" game-#717 came in over all lighter in bare pieces than the wieghts OVSS BOSS reported at the begginging of this thread. 53 grams lighter-almost 2 oz. #717 has a lot of clear carbon on it (look at picks at post #487)-not sure if it was due to that or just Tragi getting lighter in the builds. Of course my build did not capitalize on this and it came in at 79 oz. Oh well........

Actually it's somewhere around 64-65 oz, depending on which scale I use. First flights showed very nice float. I used the Airtronics 809s in the airlerons and I think I can say it feels more nimble and manuverable. Plus it's easier to see over the white and black one!!

BK
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:30 PM
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Australia, WA, Perth
Joined Oct 2003
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Over in the Supra ball links thread weight of the paint has come up and it does make a difference. White is generally lighter, yellow is particularly heavy due to the weight of the pigments and the number of coats required to get a good cover. Difference in paint colour could easily explain 2-3oz over a ship this size.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:30 PM
MSgt, USAF Ret.
Jim Frahm's Avatar
USA, WA, Spokane
Joined Nov 2003
1,247 Posts
Looks are so much more important than weight; just ask your wife! I spent 6 days building my 801. Every time I started the build I ended up just staring at it for hours. It's beautiful Clark!

Should I fly it or hang it on the wall?

AV8R,

You're not spending enough money on planes; everyone knows the more you spend the more air time you will get. Good luck with that BTW.
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 05:39 PM
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belouder's Avatar
Seattle
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So I guess what I gained in clear coat I lost in yellow? You can tell they barely fogged on the yellow-not super even coverage but if it means lighter then I'm all for it!!

What are you saying Jim? Do I need to shed a few pounds?

BK
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 07:58 PM
Circles in Lift
bwanajim's Avatar
Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
425 Posts
Amen to that. Past a certain point, the time we waste going to exotic extremes to lighten these things would be better spent with a zip start and a landing tape.

I can't help but remember that my contest scores were a lot better back before I cared much about AUW.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Perkins View Post
I would suggest that we all build our models, pay attention to weight during the building process... but don't weigh them until AFTER we've flown 'em a few times...

And Tom - nice job, and thanks for making all of your models available.

D
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 08:19 PM
Circles in Lift
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Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Now that I've seen a F3J WC first hand, I would agree that durability is crucial, although some of the US Team had super light planes which seemed to handle the tows just fine. In particular, the 56oz Supra Pro Comps with glass wings and built-up tails had no difficulty launching as high as anyone else with no tendency to become squirrely on tow. I don't know how these ultra light Supras would handle a whole season of F3J, but they are a lot tougher than anyone expected.

I take your point that F3J is a lot harder on models than the TD format we fly here in the USA. That's no doubt why the focus in Europe is more on durability. After all, you can't win if you can't finish.

We tend to focus a lot on weight because here in the Northwest, it is common to have early morning rounds in cold air with clouds, light rain and absolutely no lift. It's probably a lot like Finland in that regard! Every ounce makes a difference. The Supra was sort of a revelation to us when it first came out because it was the first plane that you could really toss around like a handlaunch at low altitudes to capitalize on whatever bits of light lift were around. During the WC, I would watch the junior rounds in early morning conditions. The US juniors were flying very light planes and from the towman's end, we could clearly see the advantage when several models were flying together in a gaggle. At the slightest hint of lift, the Supra Pro Comps would just climb through the pack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuomo View Post
But I think mostly it is because of F3J contests vs. TD. F3J tow must be fast and it is a very high stress to a plane. Light lamination planes used as all round just do not last too many contests... And a stiffer plane launches allways higher. And if you have a flexible wing, it is difficult to trimn the launch straight and controllable. Especially when wing flexes torsionally, plane becomes quirrelly and risk of hitting the next guy goes up.

Also flying style makes difference. You got to get used to the wing loadings you use. I would not like to fly Aspire empty in anything over 5m/s. And when I have confidence in my heavyer lay up plane, and do not slow down it too much, I find little higher wing loading is actually ok. ...And weight is allways a big help when escaping from the sink, reaching for the thermal or coming back from downwind. I also think little more heavy plane has more stable landing approaches. In fact I think my double carbon Aspire of 2.45kg AUW is quite ok also in any medium wind day. It is very robust and confidence building plane. I like it as well as the new light disser Aspire

BTW I also think (I am not sure) we use ballast more aggressively. In strong winds fying a double carbon plane at over 3kg AUW is not that uncommon. At least if the plane has enough ballast capability... This summer I have attended two contest (over 10m/s steady winds) where flying the Aspire with full ballast has been vital (I think the balast capacity is around 1kg).

What do you think of my explination??
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 09:05 PM
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Jim, to make the finals at the Masters, those 8:00AM and 4:30PM rounds will get you in the finals or out of them, even the Nats had some mighty light stuff this year. Like I said, a glass 801 would really be cool for those conditions (imagine a ship nearly as light a Supra Pro Comp with nearly 100+ more squares). I have told folks that my quest for light took on a life of it's own, and it is the first time in a long time that I had it bite me.

It was a fun quest, I learned a lot, but I doubt I ever chase that fart again.

Marc
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Old Sep 07, 2010, 09:17 PM
Daryl Perkins's Avatar
United States, VA, Falls Church
Joined Mar 2007
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My point was... don't believe that 3 or 4 ounces is the difference at 8:00 am or 4:30 pm... David H flew a (if i recall correctly) 78 ounce PP in the Wc's in 08. We flew at 8:00 am AND 7:00 pm... he was in the flyoff.

Shhhh... don't tell anyone... it's not all about weight OR the model... Shhhhhh....
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Old Sep 08, 2010, 01:03 AM
Sink Stinks
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Orange County, CA
Joined Aug 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Perkins View Post
Shhhh... don't tell anyone... it's not all about weight OR the model... Shhhhhh....
It IS the color!! I KNEW it!!
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Old Sep 08, 2010, 02:55 AM
Circles in Lift
bwanajim's Avatar
Redmond, Washington, USA
Joined Oct 2004
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Ok, that explains all the effort to bring those Icons in at - what was it - 68oz for the WC?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Perkins View Post
My point was... don't believe that 3 or 4 ounces is the difference at 8:00 am or 4:30 pm... David H flew a (if i recall correctly) 78 ounce PP in the Wc's in 08. We flew at 8:00 am AND 7:00 pm... he was in the flyoff.

Shhhh... don't tell anyone... it's not all about weight OR the model... Shhhhhh....
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Old Sep 08, 2010, 06:01 AM
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Tuomo's Avatar
Jyvaskyla, Finland
Joined Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
Now that I've seen a F3J WC first hand, I would agree that durability is crucial, although some of the US Team had super light planes which seemed to handle the tows just fine. In particular, the 56oz Supra Pro Comps with glass wings and built-up tails had no difficulty launching as high as anyone else with no tendency to become squirrely on tow. I don't know how these ultra light Supras would handle a whole season of F3J, but they are a lot tougher than anyone expected.

I take your point that F3J is a lot harder on models than the TD format we fly here in the USA. That's no doubt why the focus in Europe is more on durability. After all, you can't win if you can't finish.

We tend to focus a lot on weight because here in the Northwest, it is common to have early morning rounds in cold air with clouds, light rain and absolutely no lift. It's probably a lot like Finland in that regard! Every ounce makes a difference. The Supra was sort of a revelation to us when it first came out because it was the first plane that you could really toss around like a handlaunch at low altitudes to capitalize on whatever bits of light lift were around. During the WC, I would watch the junior rounds in early morning conditions. The US juniors were flying very light planes and from the towman's end, we could clearly see the advantage when several models were flying together in a gaggle. At the slightest hint of lift, the Supra Pro Comps would just climb through the pack.
I did not want say that we are not interrested in light planes. Sure we are! Big F3J contest start early in the morning and last rounds are flown just before sunset. Just like in WC. A light model is defiantely a good to have on these rounds. Compared to normmal lay up plane, it can give critical 30 sec more in that floating round.

However, during the day time rounds, we most fly normal lay up planes. There are exceptions, and some planes like Supra do not carry weight that well, like DP wrote in his post, but normal lay up full carbon 2.2-2.3 kg plane is the mainstream. And offcourse the weather can be hot and calm, favouring lighter plane even daytime.

Here in Finland flying is somewhat special. Firstly our contests are not generally that large. We start usually the morning rounds at 10am, so there are already some thermals. Typically the weather is also just warm and quite dry. Thermal activity goes through all day... I remeber flying pure floating rounds only in special conditions, like just before a coming rain.

And regarding typical weather, remeber that Finland is situated really north. This means that in summertime we get easily 20 hours of daylight. Sun comes up at 3am, and if we start flying at 10am, it is full thermal activity from the beginning of the day untill 10pm. So std lay up again being again the preferred choise, if only one plane is at hand.


But the most important thing, I believe, are the different flying styles. If you enjoy circling that small bubble in close distance and low altitude, then you propably do better with very light plane. On the other hand David Hobby was mentioned. He flyes fast, covering large areas of sky and enjoying the energy of a little more heavy plane. He knows that 5-10-15% higher AUW does not increase sink rate that much, and in his flying style weight is not a handicap.
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Old Sep 08, 2010, 06:49 AM
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Tuomo's Avatar
Jyvaskyla, Finland
Joined Aug 2003
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Just to add one thing. Personally I am one of those, who do not like to change plane in middle of competition. I feel using one std plane through all rounds gives me most consisten results, unless weather changes so much that it is an obvious benefit to use heavy/light lay up.
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Old Sep 08, 2010, 07:23 AM
Daryl Perkins's Avatar
United States, VA, Falls Church
Joined Mar 2007
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F3J is a different goal than TD... my concern with weight was more with regards to launch speed than flight performance.
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