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Old Jan 31, 2010, 10:53 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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If you have your gain at 90% then I would check to see if you have the servo arm too short. If you lengthen the servo arm, you can reduce the gain - this may give you better holding in tricky moves like backward flight because it increases the effective speed of the servo (a given angle of movement results in more movement of the slider - effectively speeding up the response). It may also increase the piro rate though, so it's up to you.

BTW, it sounds like you're doing very well overall. Your approach seems to be working for you, which is the most you can hope for.
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 12:44 AM
I butcher foam
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Springfield, MO
Joined Jun 2008
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I followed the Finless Bob tail setup for the 401 gyro and remember him saying to use the hole closet to the output shaft on the servo. If the tail gets funky I'll definitely move outward a hole and test.

Hovered a 2nd pack on the EXI 450. Did some pretty flawless hovering with no training gear in my garage (got it cleaned up, wide open spaces). This bird is doing great standing still. Once I learn and get into some FF I'll likely have to throw a gauge on the paddles and tame my ail/elev travel down.

Still need to tach my head speed. Estimated head speed at WOT is 3000 using the MrMel HS calc. With me hovering in normal mode with a curve of 0,50,80,90,100 I'm probably running at 2600-2700. Cyclic was very alive - very awake - I could probably go for a lower head speed just starting out.

7 min on the pack, battery came down warm (old and tired pack as well), motor/esc cold.

Couldn't be happier with the setup.

BTW I'm running

EXI 450 metal/carbon
3xHS65 MG cyclic
1x MKS DS480 on the tail
HK401B gyro
Extreme Flight Airboss Elite 45A ESC (doesn't have a proper soft start, so I'm going to swap this soon)

2200 mah 25c packs that have seen many many cycles.

Ordered my MSH Protos motor and cyclic servos tonight. I'm going cheap Hitec 82MGS and the stock MSH motor. ESC will be a CC ICE 75 or MSH 80A ESC. Tail will be full sized digital (helps balance). 3s 2200-3000 mah packs in series to make 6s.

I will start the build when the cyclic servos get in. Can't wait!
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 01:00 AM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rballz View Post
I followed the Finless Bob tail setup for the 401 gyro and remember him saying to use the hole closet to the output shaft on the servo. If the tail gets funky I'll definitely move outward a hole and test.
This would only apply if you are using the same servo horn that he's using in the video. It would be better to have a measurement than to simply say use the closest hole.
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rballz View Post


Tritone: I would really look into training on a FP single rotor if you can afford it. Something like a honey bee FP for $100. They don't damage much, if at all, in crashes. If you do need to replace something you're at $1/$2 per part usually. Learn on it and your coaxials / sim. Once you get some good hovering skills and the Furion is built up find a person to maiden the furion to make sure it's good - then slap the gear on and train on it.

That's what I would do.
Thanks, I just keep reading how FP helis are not the way to go for noobys I'm not sure how accurate this stuff I'm reading is but I got some time to think about it. take care..
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 06:13 PM
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Springfield, MO
Joined Jun 2008
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Where are you reading that?

It's pretty simple.

Both a FP and a CP helicopter will fly provided there's an adequate pilot and no mechanical issues.

A FP helicopter can not fly inverted and thus, can not 3D. You won't be doing axial rolls, inverted hovering, tic tocs, etc. They will fly in forward flight and hover. You will be spending a great deal of time learning just THOSE TWO points. My EXI 450 (TRex 450 SE clone) with it's cnc metal head/tail and carbon fiber frame is lost on me. It hovers for me. Most of it's capabilities are not being used by me yet. Why do I own and fly this too? Because I'm impatient and have the NEED to be flying what's considered a 'real rc helicopter'. Fact is I could spend months with just my FP before reaching it's performance limits.

Being that you can't adjust blade pitch in higher wind conditions and typically have lower weight and head speed on the available FP helis - you can not typically fly in moderate winds outside.

A CP cost more to repair USUALLY because your dumb thumb rotor strike into the ground broke or bent many parts on the rotor head. Also it's advisable to tear the head down and inspect things on crashes as sometimes broken or bent parts go unnoticed.

FP helis on the other hand have simple heads, often don't break much when crashed, and if they do there's a fraction of the parts to replace.

A CP heli with it's variable pitch blades, typically higher head speed, etc can be easier to hover than a FP. Again, when learning, you might crash, and crashing a CP can put it on the bench for awhile. Crashing a FP is likely NOT going to put it on the bench long.

There ARE quirky helis that are the exceptions to the above. You're likely to find a bench queen FP due to poor quality around.

So..in training with my FP I benefit from:

-More stick time. A lot of little dumb thumbs I have result in 0 damage
-Longer hover times..I can 8-10+ minutes out of my FP because it's little brushed motor isn't pulling much in a hover
-Easier setup - no CCPM head setup here. Level swash, balance blades, and fly!
-Cheaper because the parts are cheap, low parts count, and things do not break as much
-A little harder to fly than my EXI 450. I have a crappy tail..brushed tail motor, constantly holding the tail. I think it's important to fly the tail when learning some. A properly setup HH gyro on a bird takes that away from you. It's not as stable in a hover. If I can fly the HBFP I can probably fly anything else.

You want the largest model you can get. Save for the mSR and CB100, most tiny FP AND CP birds are really fast and difficult to fly for the newcomer. HBFP, U-Fly, Hirobo Quark if you got the jack, those are good size. I think the U-Fly is probably better quality than the E-sky Honey Bee.

Back in the day people trained on buddy boxes at fields on what.. .60 nitro jobs? Those are huge compared to the models we're talking about here.

Discipline is another point, and very important.

A VERY disciplined individual can take a simulator and a collective pitch heli and learn to fly without crashing a lot. If you can do that then you can skip all the crust and get right to the cake. If you're not as disciplined you can STILL start right out on a CP heli.

The more time you spend rebuilding cp rotor heads instead of flying, the less likely you are to enjoy this.
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rballz View Post
Where are you reading that?


Discipline is another point, and very important.

A VERY disciplined individual can take a simulator and a collective pitch heli and learn to fly without crashing a lot. If you can do that then you can skip all the crust and get right to the cake. If you're not as disciplined you can STILL start right out on a CP heli.

The more time you spend rebuilding cp rotor heads instead of flying, the less likely you are to enjoy this.
Thanks rballz that is really good advise! it makes sense, I'm checking out the esky FP helis. They got this conversion frame from GURU(works with esky fp heli) that looks cool fiber glass with option for a cp belt! wow anyways keep in touch and don't crash too much ! take care...
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 07:39 PM
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the FP advisoe came from a site called RChelicopterfun the author is not fond of these. the tail motor burn out and FP is different feel... I don't know if he ment that the skill is not transferable to CP helis.. but who knows! thanks rballz!
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Old Feb 01, 2010, 09:01 PM
Axes & Blades-Cutlery & Helis
West Monroe NY
Joined Feb 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
If you have your gain at 90% then I would check to see if you have the servo arm too short. If you lengthen the servo arm, you can reduce the gain - this may give you better holding in tricky moves like backward flight because it increases the effective speed of the servo (a given angle of movement results in more movement of the slider - effectively speeding up the response). It may also increase the piro rate though, so it's up to you.

BTW, it sounds like you're doing very well overall. Your approach seems to be working for you, which is the most you can hope for.
Yep, I have heard that if your gain is in excess of 85% you probably have a problem with your tail. I'm a pretty basic pilot but I have a King II that I had a gain of 95% and was holding ok, I heard the greater than 85% story so I started tweaking the tail, I move the servo forward which is left rudder. I got the nose to hold in rate mode with no trim and in AVCS mode I reduced my gyro gain to 70%.

I think that will evenutally help me my King II flies great of course, it kind of did before
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Old Feb 04, 2010, 01:15 AM
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Springfield, MO
Joined Jun 2008
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In response to the last 3 replies:

Tritone mate, a GuruZ belt driven FP setup would be AWESOME. There's a cat around here named BALR that can set you straight with these setups.

I'm not fretting about the brushed tail motor because I want to fly the tail right now.

The skills transfer to a CP..and the CP is both easier and harder to fly than the CP.

I'm spending 99% of my time hovering my EXI 450 carbon/metal edition in my garage (Basically a Trex 450SE clone). When the weather is better I'll be flying my FP outside to train..but for hovering tail and sides in my CP is where I'm at.

I'm finding you can train on both easily. And yes, you do feel 100% 'cooler' training on a CP vs something else (FP/CX)

ewoodcox: It depends on the gyro. I've seen Finless Bob at helifreak dial a gyro down to 20-30%..Ive 'heard of others being in the 90% range. I've since dialed mine down to 75%. I'm left with wag in piro on the 401 which, as I understand, is a delay setting - so I'm nearly setup.

I'm finding it takes a few flights to get a tail setup.

My MSH Protos build is coming along nicely. Frame, mainshaft/gear/head/and tail boom are done. I just need the tail rotor assembly, boom supports, etc - and of course electronics to arrive.

It will probably be a few weeks before I can afford the esc/blades/gyro/tail servo..but I'm LOVING THE PROTOS BUILD THUS FAR.

Jasmine: from one software engineer to another, get a Protos.
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Old Feb 04, 2010, 04:33 PM
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Springfield, MO
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Just did my first FF with my EXI 450!

7 mph wind, light drizzle, FIRST ever fooray into FF with something like this

Video to follow, only did a lap, but my legs were shaking!

http://sharing.theflip.com/session/d...video/10064069
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Old Feb 04, 2010, 05:40 PM
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Awesome! the EXI looks good I'm right behind you....next in flight.. Furion 450!
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Old Feb 05, 2010, 09:23 PM
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Springfield, MO
Joined Jun 2008
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2/5/2010

MSH Protos build is on hold. I have the frame and head down save for me breaking a ball off the swash (overtightened it) and I need to make the links up for the grips.

I don't have an ESC or tail servo/gyro. I have 2 packs on the way, 6s 2200 mah 40c and can run my current 3s packs series to power her. Stock motor came in the mail today and my cyclic servos are on the way.

We the cyclic servos get here with the new swash I can set the head up. Plan to build the head, mount the motor, and set belt tension soon. Leaving just tail servo/gyro/esc mounting and setup!

Flew a few packs outside with the EXI. 15mph winds with gusts to 21. I have to say the little EXI handled the wind well..it was much more manageable than I had thought. I didnt try any forward flight like yesterday - just scooting around and hovering..learning to manage the high winds.

It was snowing too, nice back drop for some flying!

I tached my bird with helitach on Itunes. I'm showing 2300 hs. I have heard around 2200 tames the bird and is good for a beginner from helituning.com (used to be trextuning.com I believe). It does have a tiny bit of low head speed bobbing in hover inside, outside it doesn't really. The new curves with the EXI to get 2300 hs at hover make this bird VERY easy to fly.

I love it. I suggest http://www.helituning.com/index.php/...our-t-rex.html - the pitch/throttle curve areas - for noobs with a bird swinging 325'ish mm blades on a '400-450' sized heli.

It's made such a huge difference over just blindly setting curves to match another user and not paying attention to my headspeed and how the bird feels to me.
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Old Feb 11, 2010, 12:19 PM
I butcher foam
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Springfield, MO
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2/11/2010

What I've learned about most HH gyros:

-Setup the tail geometry correctly first. In MOST cases you want everything 90 (servo arm to case, tail pitch control to control rod, straight shot on the rod between the servo arm and control rod). You should have a little right pitch, maybe 8 degrees, at center. Zero pitch at center is probably WRONG.

-Fly in rate mode, note that some gyros like the 401 need to be powered on in hh mode. You should not need any trim for the tail to hold here. If you're drifting move servo on the boom to adjust until you get it trimmed. Optionally you can trim/subtrim but I prefer a mechanical setup first.

-Most gyros get their HH 'center' in memory from rate mode's center...I think Gyros like the 401 you can do some quick toggling to re-learn center.

-IF you trim the rudder and flip to a flight mode where the rudder has different trim the gyro will see this as rudder input and you will get drift.

-There's a difference between TRUE gain seen by the gyro and the gain set in your tx (unless you're on Futaba). A DX7 using gear end points with a HH gain of 80 is probably closer to 55%. Most helis are in the 20-30% true gain area. A good gear channel end point starting point on a Spektrum radio is 45-45%

-Adjust your gain up until you get wag, then back it OFF until the wag goes away. In FF you may need a little less gain even, so it's important to set gyro gain in hover AND forward flight. If you can't fly forward yet and do not have somebody to help you set this in FF you can ignore it for now and hover around.

-Check your manual..some gyros are oddballs. IMO the Telebee for example has an odd setup.

How right/wrong am I?
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Old Feb 13, 2010, 02:02 PM
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Springfield, MO
Joined Jun 2008
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2/13/2010

I crashed the EXI 450 Thursday evening. If you're wondering if you can crash on the ground..you can

I sat it down in my yard to adjust some tx settings. Having not noticed I sat it down on an angled part of the yard, once the head speed came down and the rotor disc stopped producing lift, the heli titled to match the terrain. Minor blade strike.

Since I'm using the hard stock EXI blades (some plastic crap) the blades didn't break and take the force of the blade strike away. All metal head so:

feather shaft, main shaft, main gear

All this from a very slow spinning head.

Replaced parts, 335 Align pro woodies on it now.

It's ready to re-maiden.

I've been working my butt of in the sim on side in and nose in orientation. I've also tried a lot of tail in figure 8s in hover and what not..I find this VERY hard to keep controlled...so I'm working this out as well.

MSH PROTOS UPDATE

I went with the YGE-60 ESC. It's basically much like a Jazz at half the price.

Changed to a 13T pinion. This should give me ~2500 head speed at 100% throttle. I'm going to try 85% and tach it..see how it feels. The EXI and me like ~2350 so I'm thinking 2200-2300 should be ok on the Protos.

My Tail servo (S9257) showed up with the ESC yesterday. Spartan Quark gyro is due in today.

My father and I are having a building session at his house tomorrow over prime rib and beer. His new Trex 500 kit and electronics came in over the week. We're going to work in his rex and maiden the Protos 500..and re-maiden the EXI 450.

A day full of building and flying with family, can't beat that!
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Old Feb 13, 2010, 08:24 PM
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Germantown,Md.
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Iam a newbee to rc heli's just got a Esky Honeybee cp3 beginner 6ch. I'll be following your progress,and try to use your info. to help me along, looking forward to your next entry
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