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Old Nov 16, 2010, 03:01 AM
Emperor of Speed!
Napoleon IV's Avatar
West Country UK
Joined Jul 2006
189 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by DBA-FW View Post
The red Toni and the blue Toni both seemed really fast to me... I don't understand why if the Turnigy motor in the red one has the same kv as my Eflite motor it runs so dang fast on the 8x6 prop. I know we used the same battery (Turnigy Nano-tech 2.65 30c) in the heat I flew with him. Can some one explain this kv/prop thing to me? Both should be 1250kv, but they say to use 8x6 on turnigy and 8x8 on Eflite. I might have to bolt on a Turnigy motor and see for myself if it feels faster.

Blake
Part of the problem is the APC 8 X 8 prop itself. Its very thick at the root and I think has too much blade area at the root so is all drag and not enough thrust. I am quite sure if this class takes off, the folks at APC will produce an ideal prop.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 09:20 AM
Electron Abuser
Allen, Texas (North Dallas)
Joined Oct 2002
335 Posts
Guys,

I got a private email about what batteries to use from a new racer and I thought I would post my reply since it may be of interest here.


******

... The race about a month ago I used batteries that had been beaten to death teaching my son to fly the week before. They were puffed and not putting out good power because of the abuse. We ran them too low in practice, 2 minutes or more. I suspect a lot of racers yet don't understand how important it is to not abuse batteries by runnng low. I understood and did it anyway. At this point, I never fly my race batteries more than a 80 secs in practice. That will keep them race ready new for a long time.

As far as race legal batteries are concerned, I don't know of anyone that is using batteries that are larger than 3000 mah around here. (Response to email) We just had our 3rd EF1 race this last weekend at the Ft. Worth Thunderbirds field and we had 10 pilots. It just keeps growing! I just purchased some Turnigy NanoTech 3.0 and Turnigy NanoTech 2.65 batteries for this race. (Both are under legal weight.)

I let my son fly the 3.0 batteries because he is a newer pilot and I wanted him to have a little reserve flight time. I flew the 2.65 batteries in my Little Toni and they are a little lighter and ran excellent. I finished second place, but my airplane seemed as fast as anyone. All airplanes seem very close to each other in speed.

The difference is that the Turnigy NanoTech 3.0 batteries are 25C-50C batteries and the Turnigy Nanotech 2.65 are 35C-70C. Maybe for practice we will use the 3.0 and racing the 2.65 although I can't say for positive that one battery is faster than the other. These new batteries are excellent, cheap and run very cool, just warm with no swelling. I believe they will last a long time if one doesn't run them down too low of course.

One thing I noticed is that the 2.65 has an 8C charge rate, while the 3.0 is 5C. I did recharge my 2.65 pack at 8 amps and flew 2 packs for the entire day. They seemed to get faster because I had not even cycled them before the race. I do like charging at the higher rate. It makes charger management a lot easier and does not seem to slow them down for sure. I may even charge at a higher rate as I get more experience. Just imagine charging at 8C or about 20 amps for the 2.65 batteries. (Calculated 6-7 minute charge cycle. Probably a little high for me. My disclaimer, always monitor your batteries on charge....) But of course, you have to have one of the newer chargers to get over a 5.0 amp charge rate. I used an Icharger 208B and a CellPro 10S this last race. As a side note, my newer high rate (10amp)chargers seemed to charge much more quicker even after taking into account the charge current because they didn't taper the charge current down as quickly as my older Bantam chargers. I think the newer higher rate chargers have higher balancing current and other improvements, and are designed for the new generation of high rate batteries.


I hope my answers help. Below are the links to the batteries I mentioned.


Nano Tech 2.65 - $30 pack

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...dProduct=11947


Nano Tech 3.0 - $35 pack

https://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...dProduct=11920
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 09:59 AM
Electron Abuser
Allen, Texas (North Dallas)
Joined Oct 2002
335 Posts
Just some comments to help here in reponse to the KV question.

The KV rating of the motor is generally the no load RPM per Volt. Under loads such as prop and airplane drag, the "in flight KV" will end up being slightly different for most different mass manufactured motor brands, even if the manufacturer specs the static no load KV as the same 1250 rpm per volt and fits our motor specs.

Thats why one needs an 8x6 prop for the Turningy and a little more or about an 8x8 prop for the Eflite. Prop selection is fairly important here. My son was flying the 8x8 prop on his Pogo (Eflite Motor) during the race last weekend and I noticed it took a little longer to come up to speed because of the increased pitch, but in the end, when he flew smooth, his plane nearly caught me (Lil Toni, Turnigy, 8x6 prop) in a heat where we flew against each other, and he is a new pilot.

If one is all over the sky, don't expect either airplane to achieve top straight away speed. Every control input slows the airplane down and it is cumulative lap over lap. Mimimal inputs and smooth flying begats fast straight away speed, always! Ask Dan Kane, he is one of the smoothest pilots I know.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 11:18 AM
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USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Jennings View Post
If one is all over the sky, don't expect either airplane to achieve top straight away speed. Every control input slows the airplane down and it is cumulative lap over lap. Mimimal inputs and smooth flying begats fast straight away speed, always! Ask Dan Kane, he is one of the smoothest pilots I know.

John, thanks for the compliment.

I have to say I am a little miffed by the comments regarding the recent race. We always fight perception in pylon, because it is difficult to admit that on any given day someone is better than yourself. And in doing so, we blame equipment (plane, motor, battery prop and anything else we can find). But the reality is we should be looking within and find out why the others are better. The comments about the Toni being faster than the Pogo are unfounded. On that day with John flying it is was faster but why?

Please keep it in perspective, we now have the ARF Pogo out there and several hundred are flying. Give the Pogo some credit. Why do I continue to build and design other EF1's? ANSWER: because I love plyon racing airplanes. Not to build the next fastest thing. Our goal is to have several different airplanes available, all traveling at the same speed. At the PHX race a couple weekends ago, we used Jim Allen's Pocket radar gun to check the speeds of the POGO, Shoestring and Proud Bird. Jim was using the Turningy motor on his Proud Bird, I was using the Power 25, Jerry was using the Power 25 on his shoestring and Scott was using the power 25. All the planes were within 3 MPH's of eachother in straight line speed passes. My point is with the current configuration it is going to come down to pilot skill and how prepared one is.

DK
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 12:28 PM
Afghanistanimation
johnnychimpo's Avatar
United States, TX, Killeen
Joined Sep 2006
1,171 Posts
I think my pogo was faster than anyones airplane because it has checkers on it, but im not that great of a pilot so it looks slow...J/K

I really hope this event continues to take off. These airplanes are so enjoyable to fly.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 12:34 PM
Registered User
Canada, NS, Lunenburg
Joined Oct 1999
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Jennings View Post
Thats why one needs an 8x6 prop for the Turningy and a little more or about an 8x8 prop for the Eflite.
We've found the Turnigy is significantly faster on the 8x8 than it is on the 8x6. At least a second a lap faster.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 12:38 PM
Electron Abuser
Allen, Texas (North Dallas)
Joined Oct 2002
335 Posts
Also, one thing about the Lil Toni and Chris's Pogo. We have the CG further forward than most of the other competitors. At least the ones I talked to at the contest Sunday. We shove the battery all the way forward to the firewall. I prefer, much like Dan to have my airplanes slightly nose heavy. It makes for a much more precise flight never requiring sudden inputs for corrections. And since I don't make hail mary pylon turns, but a little slower around the poles than most this last weekend, my airplane never scrubbed the speed off in the pylon turns. I watched a lot of airplanes really slow down in a pylon turn because of such sharp turn radiuses. That's one reason my airplane remains on step. Interstingly enough, I don't know if that equates to the fastest time or not. Aft CG's and tight turn radiuses may be quicker if one can fly tight to the poles in some scenarios. This is the same issue for the Q40 and F5D pilots. Take your choice. I try to be consistant and fly smooth.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 12:39 PM
Registered User
Fort Worth, Texas
Joined Nov 2002
185 Posts
All of this is good information. Dan, I am sorry if any of my comments have "miffed" you. You and John, along with others are veteran pylon racers, with a wealth of knowledge for those of us that are new to the sport. From what I have read, the whole point of EF1 is to gain a new base of pilots in the sport of pylon racing. I see forums such as these as a place for me to gain knowledge myself, as I am a novice racer. Sure, I have done well at the recent EF1 races, but that is attributed mostly to the fact that I am very familiar with the field and the two poll coarse being flown there. If we are not free to ponder set ups, and ask questions, then what is the point? If you read my post carefully, you will see that I give credit to the Pogo being competitive. I am not saying that any plane has any advantage.

If there is an advantage to one motor or the other, what ever it may be, I want to know. I fly tight around the pylons, and if the Turnigy with an 8x6 accelerates quicker, it may suit my flying style better.

Blake
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 12:49 PM
Registered User
Hemet California
Joined Jul 2009
752 Posts
I think DK hit the nail on the head, The airplanes are very close to the same speeds no matter which one you have as there rules have intended they be, This is true in most of our RC pylon events. The difference is pilot skill which practice gives you (except for me) or I think more importantly having a properly set up airplane. If you are an experienced racer and see a new racer struggling, help out, give him or her a hand to make there experience better so that maybe they come back.

Maybe what would be good is a thread with the expirenced racers giving details on how they set up an airplane and approach a race.

D.E.
who is going back to work on his AR6 EF1
(which will be 1.5 mph slower)
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 01:32 PM
Hovering my 85" Katana
Robert Youens's Avatar
Austin, Texas
Joined Mar 2006
924 Posts
Thought I would share my observations. I was calling for George Parks (Dark Blue Tony) on many of his heats. His plane seemed really fast as compared to the other (he can fly a really smooth course). On one heat he accidentally flew on high rates and his plane looked slow, in fact coming in last place in the heat (he was not smooth on high rates).

Moral of the story, when flown smoothly a plane is faster and looks faster.

As a long time electric pilot previously sponsored by a battery company and a charger company (new to pylon) I can state that with out a doubt, the battery is the most significant variable of all, if other variables remain similar. If a battery will hold .3 volts per cell more under full load than a competitors battery, that represents approximately 10% more prop speed (rmp=volts X kv rating).

I know that 3 of the fastest planes out there were flying on brand new batteries (less than 5 flight). In each case they were flying batteries that barely made the 325 gram limit (more battery is better). In my opinion John Jennings and George Parks (the two Tony's) have chose two of the best batteries available. John described them in his post. These batteries are capable of holding higher voltage over the full race, resulting in a fast airplane. The batteries are some of the cheapest batteries available for the class and should give similar performance for a longer time than most due to their battery technology.

Batteries are our fuel tanks. By battery weight restrictions, we use almost a whole tank of fuel every race. With electric, like fuel, we do run out of gas. But with electric you can destroy the tank if you take it too low.

In some cases, I noted planes were flying faster in one heat than another. Upon questioning the pilot, the slower heat was due to flying a weaker battery.

You may have noted that some planes flew very fast on take off. They probably had a new battery and made sure their battery was warmed to around 90 degrees F. A cold battery does not perform nearly as well until the point that it reaches optimal temperature.

You may have noted that some planes flew well at the start of the heat and seemed to slow later in the race. They were probably flying batteries that were older, may have been slightly puffed, or may have been deeply discharged. This condition results in internal resistance increasing more quickly than on a battery functioning optimally. It is a condition in lipo batteries that results in a symptom similar to having a pinched fuel line.

Another issue that results in poor battery performance is storing batteries fully charged. Lithium batteries that are stored fully charged develop a pacification layer. This layer results in higher internal resistance. You will be able to get the same total energy out of a pacified battery, but will not be able to get it out as quickly (again a pinched fuel line). This results in lower voltages later into a race.

I typically have to put around 1600 mah into my battery after a race to fully recharge. That is about as deep as you want to take a battery to maintain maximum voltage through out future races.

I personally use some older 3600 mah batteries with a lower C rating (which makes them cheaper) to practice. They are a bit heavy (about 1.5 oz), but I can practice longer and can save some of my better batteries for races.

I really enjoyed the races, even though I crashed in the first round. When I came out of a turn I was watching another pilots plane (you know what happens next). I was flying one of the many look alike Pogo's. My new plane will be some really ugly, really bright color with polka dots or stars. Some color I hope no one else will choose.

I look forward to flying with everyone in the future.

Robert
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 03:05 PM
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dkane's Avatar
USA
Joined Jul 2002
757 Posts
Blake, please don't take offense to my comments. I am not directing them towards any one person they are general statements regarding racing. I am glad to see you getting excited about this.

Scott, Checkers definately make a difference!!!

Both John and George have been around long enough that they know what they are doing. Pick their brain's be persistent and gather as much information as you can. CG is important, Flying style is important, Airplane weight is important, control input is important, power system is important. Any information gained is beneficial providing someone is willing to do some testing and practicing. Why are John and George, flying their Toni's? Probably, they are the ones they have the most time on and they are flying the way they like. IF I gave both of them one of my airplanes they may not go as well as when I use it and visa v.

Robert, excellent information! Keep sharing!!

DK
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 03:08 PM
Registered User
dkane's Avatar
USA
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757 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.English View Post
D.E.
who is going back to work on his AR6 EF1
(which will be 1.5 mph slower)
Stay home from your desert trip and GET IT DONE!!! Just kidding, GET IT DONE before the desert trip.

DK
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 03:26 PM
Registered User
Hemet California
Joined Jul 2009
752 Posts
DK,

I promise to have it done by the March race in phoenix along with a couple of more Q40 AR6s. It is coming along very well although probably hard to mass produce. But I can probably build a few to give to some pylon newbees.

Pictures soon
D.E.
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 04:42 PM
DHG
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United States, CO, Arvada
Joined Jul 2010
501 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Youens View Post
Another issue that results in poor battery performance is storing batteries fully charged. Lithium batteries that are stored fully charged develop a pacification layer. This layer results in higher internal resistance. ...
Robert
Robert,

Well, they say you learn something new every day, and I just did. Thanks!

Duane
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Old Nov 16, 2010, 05:04 PM
DHG
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United States, CO, Arvada
Joined Jul 2010
501 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkane View Post
Why do I continue to build and design other EF1's? ANSWER: because I love plyon racing airplanes. Not to build the next fastest thing. Our goal is to have several different airplanes available, all traveling at the same speed. ...
DK
I'll second that. I'm building my Loki (slowly, slowly) not because I think it will be faster but because it's a unique and cool design, and will incorporate a couple of features that I hope will make my life a little easier. Things like having the wing and canopy come off at the same time with just one nylon bolt, a better fit for taller batteries like the Turnigy 2650, and a wider landing gear track so I won't scrape my wingtips as much as I do with the Pogo.

Plus, if I have my own design, I won't have to buy airplanes from somebody else. Yes, I'm that cheap!
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