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Old Feb 27, 2010, 01:53 PM
c/f
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzzkill2 View Post
Wow the maximum 36mm diameter kills a lot of good motors that fall below the length requirement.


Well as most of these new converts are'nt E schooled yet, One can easilly push 1200watts into a 30mm and I push a box stock Extreme flight Outlaw with a 30mm X 20mm to 2100watts all summer long in midwest humidity. 9X8 prop to 22K

@ the proposed watt range of 800 watts I will be using a 30mm 98gram motor it cost $50 but then again the metarlugy will insure the bell housing doesnt wobble/vibrate knock magnets loose, at rpms such as the $19 stuff insuring I buy once............

Sure wish I could get ahold of a Horizon ARF for SEFF to outfit to cutting edge wingloading thrust/weight ratio than what we'll see as company outfitted to a marketing point.

Otherwise the Pogo is goona look slow in the speed runs when a little 33 gram outrunner pushing 600watts 3s in a yellow ARF mustang 137MPH+........
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 02:15 PM
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United States, MI, Grand Blanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f View Post
Well as most of these new converts are'nt E schooled yet, One can easilly push 1200watts into a 30mm and I push a box stock Extreme flight Outlaw with a 30mm X 20mm to 2100watts all summer long in midwest humidity. 9X8 prop to 22K

@ the proposed watt range of 800 watts I will be using a 30mm 98gram motor it cost $50 but then again the metarlugy will insure the bell housing doesnt wobble/vibrate knock magnets loose, at rpms such as the $19 stuff insuring I buy once............

Sure wish I could get ahold of a Horizon ARF for SEFF to outfit to cutting edge wingloading thrust/weight ratio than what we'll see as company outfitted to a marketing point.

Otherwise the Pogo is goona look slow in the speed runs when a little 33 gram outrunner pushing 600watts 3s in a yellow ARF mustang 137MPH+........
E schooled? All I've ever flown is electric aircraft both helicopters and airplanes. My comment was directed at the brands that don't produce acceptable motors in the 36mm dia. maximum requirement range but, do make motors shorter than the 42mm maximum length requirement. Hyperion 30 series and Scorpion 30 series motors for example.

Why not just leave the requirements at a certain max power level and leave it at that? Having motor dia. and length requirements simply excludes motors that would otherwise be perfectly suitable.
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 08:24 PM
Battery Puffer
Orange, California, United States
Joined Nov 2001
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Aren't the stators in the Hyperion and scorpian 30 series motors 30mm. If so why would they not be legal?

Mark
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 10:10 PM
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United States, CA, Rancho Cucamonga
Joined Mar 2003
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Here is the motor dimension rule taken off the Nmpra site. Sounds like 36 is the max diameter. 30 should be ok.

1) Dimensions: Maximum length (excluding shaft) shall be 42mm; Maximum diameter shall be 36mm
2) Configuration: Stock, commercially available outrunner motor.
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 10:33 PM
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United States, WA, Tacoma
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how many flights do you have now Archie?
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkF View Post
Aren't the stators in the Hyperion and scorpian 30 series motors 30mm. If so why would they not be legal?

Mark
My understanding is the motor "can" has a max. dia. of 36mm. Scorpion and Hyperion cans are 37&37.5mm
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 11:12 PM
c/f
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Ahh I see my the confusion, sorry....CAN meaning (outside dimension of Bell) versus stator laminates which is typically what motor designations are in outrunners, even with the Turnigy line up. I know the 36 Turnigy and Scorpion lineup is larger than a 30mm Hyperion outside can dims.

The battery energy density being talked about (ie max weight, good move) is really 600-800watts capable for like 2-3 minute flights.

Once a battery weight is determined all things become equal as the max energy density available for a given weight, to achieve a 2-3 minute flight, will likely produce 600-800 watts regardless of the motor dimensions. In my world motor dimensions dia and lengths are more to do with watts dissapation potential. The battery will dictate whats available. motor shell is basically an empty gearbox in which the prop, cell count, KV become the gears to ouput the fixed energy density/watts (ie Battery) to a useable thrust into a calculated speed range aproximation.....
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 11:16 PM
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Muncie, Indiana
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I have (50) flights on my Turnigy SK 35-42-1000Kv and a dozen on my Turnigy SK 35-42-1250Kv Motor. I also have 50 flights on my Turnigy SK 35-48-1100.

These flights split time between teh LR1-A, Predator 500, and V-Raptor 500 Composite. All flights were with Rhino 4S 20C 2350 packs.

Archie Adamisin
Muncie, Indiana
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Old Feb 27, 2010, 11:24 PM
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United States, MI, Grand Blanc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f View Post
Ahh I see my the confusion, sorry....CAN meaning (outside dimension of Bell) versus stator laminates which is typically what motor designations are in outrunners, even with the Turnigy line up. I know the 36 Turnigy and Scorpion lineup is larger than a 30mm Hyperion outside can dims.

The battery energy density being talked about (ie max weight, good move) is really 600-800watts capable for like 2-3 minute flights.

Once a battery weight is determined all things become equal as the max energy density available for a given weight, to achieve a 2-3 minute flight, will likely produce 600-800 watts regardless of the motor dimensions. In my world motor dimensions dia and lengths are more to do with watts dissapation potential. The battery will dictate whats available. motor shell is basically an empty gearbox in which the prop, cell count, KV become the gears to ouput the fixed energy density/watts (ie Battery) to a useable thrust into a calculated speed range aproximation.....
I agree, that's why I don't understand the size limits on the motors. If they are going to limit the power to the motor then what difference does it make what size motor you use? Seems like motor size and weight would lead most to use the smallest/lightest motor they can anyway. Not to mention the E-Flite Power 10 & Power 15 don't meet the required specs.

How about it "rule makers"? Educate me?
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 01:36 AM
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To throw my outside observation in on this. The whole intent in some of the rules is to prevent there from being a perception that an expensive motor or combo will be the only way to win. by limiting some of the variables, it will create a perception that you dont have to be a top flight electrical genius with gobs of money to be competative. There are things that go counter to what I think as well. However I am more than willing to let the thing get off the ground based on the intro rules. I think its a great starting point and commend the folks that have invested so much time working to get this started. I would like eventually ( key word eventually!) to see this class make a step up to somewhere that sees them doing flight speeds between 424 and 428, say 150mph?
but intlll it gets off the ground, lets give it a chance to have a natural birth before we try to get all "racey " with it,,
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 02:05 AM
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My understanding is this was a thread for discussion? I wouldn't know the first thing about getting "racey".

I'm curious more than anything, as to how the 36mm dia. and 42mm length as maximum motor dimensions where set and why they are necessary to start with if there's a power (watt) limit. My understanding is there is already a weight limit. Weight limit and a power limit will really cull the heard of motors out there anyway without dipping into physical size requirements.

I'm not trying to be confrontational or argumentative but, if someone can explain it to me and I gain useful knowledge from it I'd be more than grateful.

Is there some advantage to a larger motor over a smaller one if they both are limited to the same wattage?
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 07:15 AM
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The rules will probably to change to include an energy limiter in the power circuit as is used very successfully in F5B and F5D. Then, the only thing remaining in the power circuit that realistically influences how fast you can go is the efficiency of the motor. The effect of this is small. Once the energy limit is determined and limiters start being used we can forget about motor and battery size limits.

But, until the class is up and running and some initial competitions have been held it's hard to know where that energy limit should be set. The existing rules are a good start and I suspect early adopters will simply use the Turnigy motor to get things going. So, let's wait and see how it pans out.
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 07:39 AM
c/f
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I'm still confused on the actaul meaning of the motor dimensions explanation.

Is it a, up to a max definition?

Is it by OEM model # in mm X mm ?

Or is it by physical dimensions measured actual with a caliper?

This is not a question of skirting the rules but understanding what to show up with on game day should I decide, Very interested and could showup in Louisville KY, St Louis MO, Nashville TN, Indianapolis IN, Chicago IL. just to name a few and started racing with Spickler 500 and KB .40 muffler exhaust back in the day in Bloomington IL........... I love to school the masses on E-power potentials over liquid fueled counterparts.

IMHO
Turnigy is not in my vocabulary, unless an IROC class is created.
Nue will eventually be "only" answer once limiters are imposed.
A 250gram battery is going to get you in the 600-800 watts range depending on brand.
A sub 150gram motor is all thats needed to push these watt ranges

Battery weight max, minimum airframe weight, plastic covering, IMHO set the stage as to what type of budget this class will pinpoint.
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman67 View Post
I also have 50 flights on my Turnigy SK 35-48-1100.
Which is presumably not legal for racing because it's too long?
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Old Feb 28, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Many of the rules' originatorss are in Phoenix this weekend so be patient on answers re motors.
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