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Old Jul 13, 2012, 10:30 AM
Flying a Chipmunk in Portugal
jhsa's Avatar
NRW, Germany
Joined Sep 2010
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No, this subject must be brought up from time to time.. and thank you for doing it..
And all resumes to this:
Always set your failsafe.. Basic rule..
Don't fly over people and property at any time.
Always keep distance from people making sure they're behind you, and fly only in front at you..
Sorry guys, I'm a bit off topic now but this is really important.. Many people that fly models never read the safety rules and have no idea about the dangers involved in this hobby..
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
RC beginner
New York
Joined Oct 2008
6,054 Posts
hi jim, thanks agin for that compendium thread. it was very helpful getting me up to speed couple years back when i was busy with my "worlds lowest cost multicopter" thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesolins View Post
Although you first titled and posted FrSky in your linked thread, I noticed you repeatedly mentioned FlySky in many of your later posts. To be clear, the FrSky brand(D8R, D8R-II, D4FR, D4R-II) does indeed have failsafes that you can easily set

Note that the FlySky brand of Rx that comes with the Turnigy 9x and knock-offs, has no failsafe features at all.[/COLOR][/URL]
its true that many prefer their own definition of the word "failsafe". i like the standard usage as defined in the link from a few posts back:

http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html

a rx that has no mcu/dsp will produce garbage pwm pulses and servos generally go wild. this type of rx has "no failsafe". one that uses a microcontroller to read and store last pulse settings (requires considerable intelligence and memory) is "non-configurabe failsafe". then of course the (only?) type you recognize which i refer to as "user settable failsafe". of course people are allowed to use words any way they like. specially if they are courteous enough to let others in on it. usually there is a best definition for reducing confusion though.

i consider flysky not only DOES have failsafe but one which removes throttle and holds other channels. far superior to those that dont like frsky. i now know of 4 people who have lost planes that way with frsky but not one with flysky.

also be aware as stated many times here and in the other thread some frsky rx have NON-CONFIGURABLE failsafe and there is nothing you can do to prevent flyaway.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:09 AM
RC beginner
New York
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
No, this subject must be brought up from time to time.. and thank you for doing it..
And all resumes to this:
Always set your failsafe.. Basic rule..
Don't fly over people and property at any time.
unless of course as ive mentioned several times it is "non-user configurable" like the frsky 5ch. in that case there is nothing to be done to prevent flyaway. except maybe request firmware update from frsky. surprisingly unpopular idea even considering it adds zero cost to the production.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:12 AM
RC beginner
New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
Also, frsky modules can be used with different radio systems that use different channels for the throttle. So, which channel is the throttle channel that frsky should improve?? Impossible.. Is the tx that defines the throttle channel..
it dont matter. (am i talking to a wall?) if all pulses are removed whatever channel throttle is on will stop the motor. and anyway tx rarely defines throttle channel these days since most like 9x, futaba, jr, spektrum, etc are programmable. even the guy who insists MOST radios use ch7 will be happy.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:13 AM
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United States, FL, Palm Beach
Joined Jan 2011
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Could the FrSky failsafe be setup to center A/E/R controls and reduce T to idle and select a switch position? The goal would be to have a multirotor's FC enter failsafe/autoland mode.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:17 AM
RC beginner
New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by viper522 View Post
Could the FrSky failsafe be setup to center A/E/R controls and reduce T to idle and select a switch position? The goal would be to have a multirotor's FC enter failsafe/autoland mode.
most but not all frsky rx have that ability. much bigger problem there is failure of the ppm signal in applications that require 20ms frame rate like quadcopters. many recently concluded frsky not best choice for those applications. look like there are a couple things to fix.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Birmingham, UK
Joined Apr 2007
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I can't help it, I've got to say it.
If a receiver does not have a user configurable failsafe IT DOES NOT HAVE A FAILSAFE! It has a fail-mode. Different animal entirely. All the FrSky receivers I own have a failsafe, though I don't own the 5 channel mini rx.
In the UK I have never seen or heard of a site where less than 2% of flyers use ic engines, unless it's a noise sensitive site only permitting electric or glider. There's a split over how the failsafe should be set, some set it for neutrals and low throttle, some for a spin, much depends on the local conditions.
In my opinion, if anyone is daft enough to not set the failsafe then it should hold the last position on loss of signal. Anything else has more potential for an unsafe outcome. If the model flys away then it will likely keep going until the fuel or battery expire with a low power arrival at the end. If the output is cut then you cannot predict what the servos will do. Might (will be for most electric) be low power and a crash, might be high power and a bigger crash. No-one can say.
What you cannot say is that most flyers use electric power, so ic modellers don't matter.
Unfortunately because different brands of tx use different channel assignments it wouldn't be easy to set specific channels to specific positions. It would need some way of telling the rx which is which - then you mauy as well use a user configurable failsafe.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:46 AM
Flying a Chipmunk in Portugal
jhsa's Avatar
NRW, Germany
Joined Sep 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1993 View Post
it dont matter. (am i talking to a wall?) if all pulses are removed whatever channel throttle is on will stop the motor. and anyway tx rarely defines throttle channel these days since most like 9x, futaba, jr, spektrum, etc are programmable. even the guy who insists MOST radios use ch7 will be happy.
No. I am talking to a wall

So are you saying that frsky should define a channel for throttle on their modules because all new radios are programable??

Something like this " Oh guys if you want to use the frsky system you must use throttle on channel 3. so, if you use old use old radios forget about it.. "

A question: How do Futaba, JR, Spektrum Airtronics, etc handle the failsafe??

Do they stop the pulses on their receivers? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.. but I can guess the answer..

And I repeat, if the pulses are stopped there's a very good chance that the servo moves to any position including full power with catastrophic results..
And I'm stopping posting now because I start to repeat myself.. My opinion is already here and in my posts above, so no need to say more..

Joćo
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 11:58 AM
RC beginner
New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrumBob View Post
In my opinion, if anyone is daft enough to not set the failsafe then it should hold the last position on loss of signal. Anything else has more potential for an unsafe outcome.
of course you are entitled to your opinion but note that this is forbidden in the uk by bfma. for those who missed it the first few times heres the link describing human fatality as a result of that and subequent rule change:

http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrumBob View Post
What you cannot say is that most flyers use electric power, so ic modellers don't matter.
you might be mistaken about that. i can say exactly that. in fact i will go a bit further with use of the phrase "overwhelming majority". hobby snobs will disagree and insist all rc hobbyists fly the same kind of models as they do. my comment stems from real world observation of literally hundreds of owners from toy heli to 12' gliders and just about everything in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrumBob View Post
Unfortunately because different brands of tx use different channel assignments it wouldn't be easy to set specific channels to specific positions. It would need some way of telling the rx which is which
to repeat, for like what, the 15th or 20th time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1993 View Post
it dont matter. (am i talking to a wall?) if all pulses are removed whatever channel throttle is on will stop the motor. and anyway tx rarely defines throttle channel these days since most like 9x, futaba, jr, spektrum, etc are programmable. even the guy who insists MOST radios use ch7 will be happy.
like with my original thread most participants appear to just jump to the end of a thread and start making noise instead of bothering to read even a few posts back.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 12:30 PM
RC beginner
New York
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
No. I am talking to a wall
sorry Joćo, you seem to be a nice fellow. certainly nicer than me. but i do get frustrated answering the same questions over and over. reviewing previous posts in these discussions can sometimes be very educational on just whose paying attention. btw nobody has called me a jerk or directed personal attacks toward me in weeks. or used the "t word" once. what am i doing wrong? where are scott and steven these days anyway?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
So are you saying that frsky should define a channel for throttle on their modules because all new radios are programable??
no. ive never made that statement although that last part is virtually true. i will say certainly MOST radios beyond the toy grade are programmable. i might even risk the phrase "overwhelming majority" again.

ill repeat that it dont matter what channel throttle is on if you drop pulses on all of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
Something like this " Oh guys if you want to use the frsky system you must use throttle on channel 3. so, if you use old use old radios forget about it.. "
??????????

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
A question: How do Futaba, JR, Spektrum Airtronics, etc handle the failsafe??

Do they stop the pulses on their receivers? I'm asking because I honestly don't know.. but I can guess the answer..
last time i was asked that i wasnt sure either because i personally cant see paying over $50 for a tx+kit let alone just a rx. and i dont use the ones i inherited. but after recent first hand experience with owners of all them i now have a clue. most of those at the field i polled behaved like frsky if not set up. when people in my fatal flaw thread told me this i simply didnt believe it but now i see "there are more things in heaven and earth...". still hard to believe. but considering prevaling "thats just the way it is" attitude it does not seem so incredible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
And I repeat, if the pulses are stopped there's a very good chance that the servo moves to any position including full power with catastrophic results..
that does not agree with tests ive run on many different 1gram-9gram servos. worst case the arm twitched 1 or 2 deg but never moved far. servos dont matter anyway. the important thing is virtually all esc kill motor on no pwm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhsa View Post
And I'm stopping posting now because I start to repeat myself.. My opinion is already here and in my posts above, so no need to say more..
well as you can see i really dont mind repeating myself. its understandable you might see no need to to say more, but me? lol!
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 12:36 PM
Aloft Hobbies
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United States, CA, Novato
Joined Sep 2003
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I fly gliders and occasionally electrics. I prefer the failsafe defaults FrSky uses. I use the throttle channel for other things. And on glider mixes, that throttle channel can be used for most anything. Also the throttle channel is different on different transmitter makes. So the throttle idle down is a horrible idea that would cause more trouble.

Despite what Dave1993 says, the public expects and likes the FrSky defaults. They are well thought out and work well in daily use. Don't like them? Then set your failsafe the way you want it. Got spoilers? Got flaps? Got a rudder? Got crow? Then set your failsafe.

Also keep in mind that you may need to reset your failsafe after any major plane changes or over time as the plane setups may slowly change.

Please stop bickering about the definition of failsafe, and please stop repeating the same things over and over. We all heard it the first 10 times. (Sorry, it was getting old.)

-Wayne
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 12:42 PM
master of the universe
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USA, CA, Novato
Joined Jul 2008
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hi all any suggestions for entry level fpv vtx systems that work well with this system?
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Romania, Dolj, Craiova
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5.8ghz 200mw, the one with the receiver labeled RC305.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 01:21 PM
master of the universe
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USA, CA, Novato
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link? I got the little firmware programmer from hk by the way but havnt used it yet.
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Old Jul 13, 2012, 01:43 PM
Tri-Quad-Hexa-Octo-copters!!
United States, TX, San Antonio
Joined Feb 2007
14,538 Posts
Hi Dave,
Glad the Q&TIMLI was of some help

I agree that it must be semantics then that are being confused too. I have always set failsafes on my Rx channels whether they were the 72Mhz Berg, Futaba, Futaba FASST, and Spectrum AR7000. All the FrSky Rx's previously mentioned that I use, do have the ability to set failsafes for all channels. I safely ops check them to insure they work the way I want them to. Personally the ability to set channel failsafe is what I look for in any Rx I purchase for my flying stuff. As you know it is just standard practice for those that are aware that signal loss fly-always are a potential event if not accounted for in a models RX setup. Even with all that setup detail I also incorporate several ways of locating my multicopters, i.e. GPS data-link, UHF Beacon, Lok8tor, and a sealed note with a phone number for a reward if found.

I now see from this thread that there are other ideas about how to implement Rx failsafe that I am not familiar with. I suppose as has been said there is no failsafe flavor that is perfect for everyone's particular build and model type.

I also think you will find fly-away's documented with all Rx's. What often you won't find is the real reason, which usually goes back to what is mentioned many times in the link you provided, not being operationally responsible and RTFM

The bottom line is there are certainly Rx improvements that can be made whether it is in attention to detail in, Rx failsafe setup, Rx failsafe defaults, Rx failsafe documentation and just finding out if the Rx has the features you want before it it purchased.

Cheers,
Jim
Quadrocopter and Tricopter Info Mega Link Index


Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1993 View Post
hi jim, thanks agin for that compendium thread. it was very helpful getting me up to speed couple years back when i was busy with my "worlds lowest cost multicopter" thread.



its true that many prefer their own definition of the word "failsafe". i like the standard usage as defined in the link from a few posts back:

http://www.bmfa.org/news/bulletins/bull2_99.html

a rx that has no mcu/dsp will produce garbage pwm pulses and servos generally go wild. this type of rx has "no failsafe". one that uses a microcontroller to read and store last pulse settings (requires considerable intelligence and memory) is "non-configurabe failsafe". then of course the (only?) type you recognize which i refer to as "user settable failsafe". of course people are allowed to use words any way they like. specially if they are courteous enough to let others in on it. usually there is a best definition for reducing confusion though.

i consider flysky not only DOES have failsafe but one which removes throttle and holds other channels. far superior to those that dont like frsky. i now know of 4 people who have lost planes that way with frsky but not one with flysky.

also be aware as stated many times here and in the other thread some frsky rx have NON-CONFIGURABLE failsafe and there is nothing you can do to prevent flyaway.
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