It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the wksp,
I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a decent
environment.
To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should
be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a
comfortable working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers do?
and what type of heating do you reccomend?
Don

In article <7r5mo4Fb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, Donwill
<Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> writes

>It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the
>wksp, I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a
>decent environment.
>To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should
>be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a
>comfortable working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers do?
>and what type of heating do you reccomend?
>Don


Don,

When I expanded from my small workshop a year or so ago to annexe the
garage, I had the same issue. The workshop is not heated but is open to
the house and reasonably warm; the garage was unusable in winter as it
was.

I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass insulation
and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss (Googling "heat
loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas, though not many
cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through the steel
un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply insulation panels
for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to make these
available? - the heat lost through these things can be enormous). I am
still working on this, something cobbled up from polystyrene or
polyurethane sheets seems probable.

Then I fitted heaters. It seemed to me that electrical heating was the
only sensible option, and I fitted a couple of ceramic panel heaters
from Machine Mart:

http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca.../panel-heaters

and wired them up through a cheap wall-mounted thermostat from Screwfix.
A little experimentation is required to get the desired temperature, as
(certainly in my experience) the temperature achieved fell rather short
of the marked figures.

My experience is that I need to improve the insulation or crank up the
heat to make the garage habitable first thing in the current weather -
it improves once I have opened the door connecting it to the house for a
couple of hours, though still a bit nippy. However, it has, so far,
meant that I have seen no signs of corrosion on the machinery and
tooling stored there.

David
--
David Littlewood

David Littlewood wrote:

> In article <7r5mo4Fb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, Donwill
> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> writes

>> It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the
>> wksp, I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a
>> decent environment.
>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature
>> should be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat
>> to a comfortable working temperature. What do experienced wksp
>> engineers do? and what type of heating do you reccomend?
>> Don

>
> Don,
>
> When I expanded from my small workshop a year or so ago to annexe the
> garage, I had the same issue. The workshop is not heated but is open
> to the house and reasonably warm; the garage was unusable in winter as
> it was.
>
> I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass
> insulation and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss
> (Googling "heat loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas,
> though not many cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through
> the steel un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply
> insulation panels for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to
> make these available? - the heat lost through these things can be
> enormous). I am still working on this, something cobbled up from
> polystyrene or polyurethane sheets seems probable.
>
> Then I fitted heaters. It seemed to me that electrical heating was the
> only sensible option, and I fitted a couple of ceramic panel heaters
> from Machine Mart:
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca.../panel-heaters
>
> and wired them up through a cheap wall-mounted thermostat from
> Screwfix. A little experimentation is required to get the desired
> temperature, as (certainly in my experience) the temperature achieved
> fell rather short of the marked figures.
>
> My experience is that I need to improve the insulation or crank up the
> heat to make the garage habitable first thing in the current weather -
> it improves once I have opened the door connecting it to the house for
> a couple of hours, though still a bit nippy. However, it has, so far,
> meant that I have seen no signs of corrosion on the machinery and
> tooling stored there.
>
> David

Thanks for that David, I'm thinking of removing the garage door and
replacing with an insulated stud wall and an used pedestrian access 3ft
wide fire door which I picked up cheaply for £10.
I have a car port which abuts directly on to the existing garage door
and I have another 2 off road parking places so I don't think that
planning will be interested
"I hope". A friend told me about a method of keeping the dreaded rust
away by attaching low voltage power resistors to the machines which
seems to be quite successful in his case. I haven't done it myself yet
but the time will come as I am collecting resistors to put it into practice.
Don

David Littlewood wrote:

> In article <7r5mo4Fb4pU1@mid.individual.net>, Donwill
> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> writes

>> It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the
>> wksp, I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a
>> decent environment.
>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature
>> should be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to
>> a comfortable working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers
>> do? and what type of heating do you reccomend?
>> Don

>
> Don,
>
> When I expanded from my small workshop a year or so ago to annexe the
> garage, I had the same issue. The workshop is not heated but is open to
> the house and reasonably warm; the garage was unusable in winter as it was.
>
> I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass insulation
> and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss (Googling "heat
> loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas, though not many
> cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through the steel
> un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply insulation panels
> for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to make these
> available? - the heat lost through these things can be enormous). I am
> still working on this, something cobbled up from polystyrene or
> polyurethane sheets seems probable.
>
> Then I fitted heaters. It seemed to me that electrical heating was the
> only sensible option, and I fitted a couple of ceramic panel heaters
> from Machine Mart:
>
> http://www.machinemart.co.uk/shop/ca.../panel-heaters
>
> and wired them up through a cheap wall-mounted thermostat from Screwfix.
> A little experimentation is required to get the desired temperature, as
> (certainly in my experience) the temperature achieved fell rather short
> of the marked figures.
>
> My experience is that I need to improve the insulation or crank up the
> heat to make the garage habitable first thing in the current weather -
> it improves once I have opened the door connecting it to the house for a
> couple of hours, though still a bit nippy. However, it has, so far,
> meant that I have seen no signs of corrosion on the machinery and
> tooling stored there.
>
> David




erm - you may as well extend your domestic heating system into the
workshop and use a controller/timer/thermostat device to operate a
motorised valve and leave the door through to the house closed. That
way you can apply a bit of background heat to the garage without venting
all of the cold air into your house. The ceramic heaterrs can operate
via a cheap mechanical timer and your screfix thermostat to provide a
bit of heat when your CH isn't running - in the middle of the night for
example.


just my 10p worth






regards



dudley

"Donwill" <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:7r5mo4Fb4pU1@mid.individual.net...

> It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the wksp,
> I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a decent
> environment.
> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should be
> kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a comfortable
> working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers do? and what type
> of heating do you reccomend?


Tubular heating of the sort sold for greenhouses for background heating.

Run a dehumidifier, which as well as sucking out the moisture will also
add a little background heating effect.

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:36:17 +0000, David Littlewood
<david@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:


>I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass insulation
>and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss (Googling "heat
>loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas, though not many
>cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through the steel
>un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply insulation panels
>for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to make these
>available? - the heat lost through these things can be enormous). I am
>still working on this, something cobbled up from polystyrene or
>polyurethane sheets seems probable.


I had exactly the same problem. I cosidered replacing the door with a
stud wall but decided that access in the future was important if I
ever get a "proper mill". In the end I got a builder friend to get me
two sheets of 8 x 4 Celotex 70mm thick. Cut these to suit the width of
the door frame and cut wedges of the same to fill in the edges out to
the wall. I glued a length of 75 x 19 "treated" board to the floor
first to stop any water coming through under the door getting into the
shop. Taped all of the edges of the Celotex with Aluminised tape and
put a length of EPDM seal between the lower panel and the floor board.

Reading the above it sounds like a cobble but it actually looks good
and seems to be working. Cost £46 for the two panels, tape in stock,
EPDM seal from Screwfix.
Advantages Easily removable, low cost, quick to do
Disadvantages Cannot hang anything on the new "wall".

I also had a problem with the rooflight in the garage. Even though
double glazed I could feel the cold "falling down". Fitted a piece of
1000 x 700 5mm polycarbonate sheet into the cavity and supported it
with a batten "picture frame". The polycarb has been kicking arround
for years so zero cost. Left the protective sheet on it so if needed
for a job is recoverable.
That has definitely made a difference.

Yet to insulate the roof once I get rid of a load of stuff hung from
it!

Then I need to bite the bullet and put some "controlled" heating and
maybe de-humidification in.

Also need to check neighbors garden as I feel that their soil line is
higher than my garage floor and that is why that end of the garage
seems a bit damp!

Richard

David Littlewood wrote:


>> It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the
>> wksp, I've started insulating it but heat is required to create a
>> decent environment.
>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature
>> should be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to
>> a comfortable working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers
>> do? and what type of heating do you reccomend?


> When I expanded from my small workshop a year or so ago to annexe the
> garage, I had the same issue. The workshop is not heated but is open to
> the house and reasonably warm; the garage was unusable in winter as it was.
>
> I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass insulation
> and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss (Googling "heat
> loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas, though not many
> cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through the steel
> un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply insulation panels
> for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to make these
> available? - the heat lost through these things can be enormous). I am
> still working on this, something cobbled up from polystyrene or
> polyurethane sheets seems probable.


I am doing the same with mine. The ceiling has been boarded (one panel
twice) and I am half way through doing doing the fibreglass.
The rest will have to wait another week or so while I recover. Two of
the 3 up-and over doors I have bolted shut, taken the mechanism off, and
lined the inside with 50mm rigid insulation (Kingspan type stuff) glued
in with polyurethane foam. I am thinking of putting a proper door in the
3rd hole, and in the meantime I think a brush at the bottom and several
layers of cardboard might not be a bad insulator, if I can figure out a
reasonable way to fix it.
Don't forget the floor. I have covered this with loft boarding chipboard
which is warmer, better to walk on, and does not ruin jobs and tools
dropped on it.

--
Charles Lamont

Donwill wrote:

> Snip


> A friend told me about a method of keeping the dreaded rust
> away by attaching low voltage power resistors to the machines which
> seems to be quite successful in his case. I haven't done it myself yet
> but the time will come as I am collecting resistors to put it into
> practice.
> Don



As Don's "friend" I've taken some pictures of my machine heaters


Myford ML7R Lathe 2 x 5 ohm in series on 16v
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/IMG_0982.jpg
Myford VMC Mill 4 x 39 ohm in parallel also on 16 v
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/IMG_0981.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n...s/IMG_0979.jpg

About 25 watts into each machine.

Has kept rust away for 30 years in an unheated single skin brick
workshop. The only other 'precaution' is not cleaning up any oil
splashes from normal use.

Bob

In article <4furk5d8va3kph9m6d59j6lrm54fhtpdqm@4ax.com>, Richard Edwards
<poundeater@blueyonder.co.uk> writes

>On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 11:36:17 +0000, David Littlewood
><david@nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>

>>I decided the first need was to insulate. I fitted fibreglass insulation
>>and plasterboard to the roof. An estimate of heat loss (Googling "heat
>>loss calculator" will show up dozens of pro-formas, though not many
>>cover steel doors) showed that most was lost through the steel
>>un-and-over door, but the manufacturer did not supply insulation panels
>>for it (sidebar - should it not be a requirement to make these
>>available? - the heat lost through these things can be enormous). I am
>>still working on this, something cobbled up from polystyrene or
>>polyurethane sheets seems probable.

>
>I had exactly the same problem. I cosidered replacing the door with a
>stud wall but decided that access in the future was important if I
>ever get a "proper mill". In the end I got a builder friend to get me
>two sheets of 8 x 4 Celotex 70mm thick. Cut these to suit the width of
>the door frame and cut wedges of the same to fill in the edges out to
>the wall. I glued a length of 75 x 19 "treated" board to the floor
>first to stop any water coming through under the door getting into the
>shop. Taped all of the edges of the Celotex with Aluminised tape and
>put a length of EPDM seal between the lower panel and the floor board.


Richard,

That sounds like a great idea; unfortunately the garage door is required
to open fairly frequently for access for window cleaners etc. (my wife
insists...). When I built the garage it took up the whole space at the
side of the house and it's now the only access to the back.

>
>Reading the above it sounds like a cobble but it actually looks good
>and seems to be working. Cost £46 for the two panels, tape in stock,
>EPDM seal from Screwfix.
>Advantages Easily removable, low cost, quick to do
>Disadvantages Cannot hang anything on the new "wall".
>
>I also had a problem with the rooflight in the garage. Even though
>double glazed I could feel the cold "falling down". Fitted a piece of
>1000 x 700 5mm polycarbonate sheet into the cavity and supported it
>with a batten "picture frame". The polycarb has been kicking arround
>for years so zero cost. Left the protective sheet on it so if needed
>for a job is recoverable.
>That has definitely made a difference.
>
>Yet to insulate the roof once I get rid of a load of stuff hung from
>it!


Don't forget to put all the lights you might want up first - it's much
harder afterwards.

>
>Then I need to bite the bullet and put some "controlled" heating and
>maybe de-humidification in.
>
>Also need to check neighbors garden as I feel that their soil line is
>higher than my garage floor and that is why that end of the garage
>seems a bit damp!
>

You may need to dig it away and paint on a bitumen damp proof coat down
to below the existing DPC. Alternatively, you could use a product called
"Bituthene" - a heavy gauge polythene sheet coated with bitumen, which
also protects the damp-proof bitumen and also keeps it away from your
neighbours legs.

David
--
David Littlewood

On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:48:38 +0000, Donwill
<Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>
>To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should
>be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a
>comfortable working temperature.


If you are contemplating electric heating then start by installing one
or more dehumidifiers. Firstly they (obviously) dry the air but
secondly they recover the latent heat of evaporation so are slightly
more efficient than a 100% efficient radiant heater (you get more heat
out than electric energy equivalent put in).

Another alternative which is much cheaper to run than resistive
heating is an inverter split unit air conditioner. This is an air
source heat pump with air drying. DIY fit versions are available.
Look for the coefficient of performance figure. In heat pump mode
these types of systems typically have a coefficient of performance
(CoP) of about 3. This means that a 3 KW air conditioner uses about 1
KW of power. Conversely a heat pump provides about 3 KW of heat while
using about 1 KW of power.

Peter Parry wrote:

> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:48:38 +0000, Donwill
> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>

>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should
>> be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a
>> comfortable working temperature.
>>

>
> If you are contemplating electric heating then start by installing one
> or more dehumidifiers. Firstly they (obviously) dry the air but
> secondly they recover the latent heat of evaporation so are slightly
> more efficient than a 100% efficient radiant heater (you get more heat
> out than electric energy equivalent put in).
>
> Another alternative which is much cheaper to run than resistive
> heating is an inverter split unit air conditioner. This is an air
> source heat pump with air drying. DIY fit versions are available.
> Look for the coefficient of performance figure. In heat pump mode
> these types of systems typically have a coefficient of performance
> (CoP) of about 3. This means that a 3 KW air conditioner uses about 1
> KW of power. Conversely a heat pump provides about 3 KW of heat while
> using about 1 KW of power.
>
>
>

That sounds like the way to go, having done a quick search LG and
Toshiba seem to be eminent in the field, do you have any experience with
them that you can share? To keep the humidity down AND heat the wksp
cheaply seems to be great. :-)
Generally speaking, the air passing through the unit needs to be cooled
to remove moisture, how does the unit apply heat to warm it up to
working temp, is this where the so called "split" system comes in? To
cool and then heat the air in principle seems wasteful ?
Any info gratefully received.
Don

On Thu, 14 Jan 2010 08:19:43 +0000, Donwill
<Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>Generally speaking, the air passing through the unit needs to be cooled
>to remove moisture, how does the unit apply heat to warm it up to
>working temp, is this where the so called "split" system comes in?


The split is simply the two units, external and internal which are
separated by the refrigerant pipes (compared with the old window
fitting combined unit where the two were in the same big box).

The one I have when operated in dehumidifier mode the unit is switched
automatically so the indoor unit alternates between having hot pipes
for heating and short periods where the refrigerant is reversed to
cool them to condense moisture out. If the room temperature is at the
temperature set on the thermostat it runs in dehumidifier mode.

Most have timer functions built in so you can have them turn on and
off by themselves - they often can't easily be controlled by a
separate time switch.

http://global-cooling.co.uk is a company specialising in DIY units.
There are some useful documents on installation at
http://global-cooling.co.uk/aircondi...ing/#section-2

I've used them a few years ago and they were very helpful when I
talked to them about what was needed.

Many units meant for DIY now come with "easy fit" sealed pipe runs
with snap fit connectors which makes installation easier.

In article <7r82crF173U1@mid.individual.net>, Donwill
<Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> writes

>Peter Parry wrote:

>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:48:38 +0000, Donwill
>> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>

>>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature
>>>should be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat
>>>to a comfortable working temperature.
>>>

>>
>> If you are contemplating electric heating then start by installing one
>> or more dehumidifiers. Firstly they (obviously) dry the air but
>> secondly they recover the latent heat of evaporation so are slightly
>> more efficient than a 100% efficient radiant heater (you get more heat
>> out than electric energy equivalent put in).
>>
>> Another alternative which is much cheaper to run than resistive
>> heating is an inverter split unit air conditioner. This is an air
>> source heat pump with air drying. DIY fit versions are available.
>> Look for the coefficient of performance figure. In heat pump mode
>> these types of systems typically have a coefficient of performance
>> (CoP) of about 3. This means that a 3 KW air conditioner uses about 1
>> KW of power. Conversely a heat pump provides about 3 KW of heat while
>> using about 1 KW of power.
>>
>>
>>

>That sounds like the way to go, having done a quick search LG and
>Toshiba seem to be eminent in the field, do you have any experience
>with them that you can share? To keep the humidity down AND heat the
>wksp cheaply seems to be great. :-)
>Generally speaking, the air passing through the unit needs to be cooled
>to remove moisture, how does the unit apply heat to warm it up to
>working temp, is this where the so called "split" system comes in? To
>cool and then heat the air in principle seems wasteful ?
>Any info gratefully received.
>Don


Don,

Warming the air automatically reduces its relative humidity, so it does
not need to be cooled first.

David
--
David Littlewood

Donwill schreef op 13-1-2010 :

> It's far too cold to go and play with my newly aquired mill in the wksp, I've
> started insulating it but heat is required to create a decent environment.
> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature should be
> kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you heat to a comfortable
> working temperature. What do experienced wksp engineers do? and what type of
> heating do you reccomend?
> Don


Hi,
Recently extended the shed, used 70mmm aerated concrete blocks to make
inner walls and floor heating. Now experimenting with Mother Earth's
Waste Oil Heater. Made it from old 12 kg propane bottles. Google for
the plans. Works fine with wood and lamp oil, but not - yet - on
discarded frying oil as planned. It does not seem to get hot enough to
ignite.
Best regards, Dirk

David Littlewood wrote:

> In article <7r82crF173U1@mid.individual.net>, Donwill
> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> writes

>> Peter Parry wrote:

>>> On Wed, 13 Jan 2010 10:48:38 +0000, Donwill
>>> <Donwill.seesig@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> To minimise the risk of condensation on machines the temperature
>>>> should be kept reasonably constant but that's expensive if you
>>>> heat to a comfortable working temperature.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you are contemplating electric heating then start by installing one
>>> or more dehumidifiers. Firstly they (obviously) dry the air but
>>> secondly they recover the latent heat of evaporation so are slightly
>>> more efficient than a 100% efficient radiant heater (you get more heat
>>> out than electric energy equivalent put in).
>>>
>>> Another alternative which is much cheaper to run than resistive
>>> heating is an inverter split unit air conditioner. This is an air
>>> source heat pump with air drying. DIY fit versions are available.
>>> Look for the coefficient of performance figure. In heat pump mode
>>> these types of systems typically have a coefficient of performance
>>> (CoP) of about 3. This means that a 3 KW air conditioner uses about 1
>>> KW of power. Conversely a heat pump provides about 3 KW of heat while
>>> using about 1 KW of power.
>>>
>>>
>>>

>> That sounds like the way to go, having done a quick search LG and
>> Toshiba seem to be eminent in the field, do you have any experience
>> with them that you can share? To keep the humidity down AND heat the
>> wksp cheaply seems to be great. :-)
>> Generally speaking, the air passing through the unit needs to be
>> cooled to remove moisture, how does the unit apply heat to warm it up
>> to working temp, is this where the so called "split" system comes
>> in? To cool and then heat the air in principle seems wasteful ?
>> Any info gratefully received.
>> Don

>
> Don,
>
> Warming the air automatically reduces its relative humidity, so it
> does not need to be cooled first.
>
> David

You need to reduce the dewpoint temp of the air below the temperature of
the machines in the wksp.
e.g air at 22degC and 60% RH, will condense out at the DP of approx
14degC. If you can reduce the RH of the air to say 48% then the DP will
be reduced to approx 11degC so if the machines are above 11deg C then
water will not condense out on them.
Don