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Old Dec 16, 2009, 09:49 PM
Your Pilot Ryan
ryramZ's Avatar
United States, IN, South Bend
Joined Nov 2008
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trainer switch/bind switch/brown out

Hey guys,

I accidently hit the bind/trainer switch on my dx6i instead of the retract switch. Everything was fine, but every few minutes the transmitter beeped, just once and then wouldn't again for a few minutes. I kept flying and was about to bring her in {my GWS epo T6 with retracts} when on final approach and turn into the wind I lost everything, all control and power, of course it crashed. Crash was hard enough to unplug the battery so i don't know if it regained power. I'm thinking that i may have sent my gear into brown out by doing an unwanted range check. I'm pretty sure it wasn't an LVC issue.
I would appreciate input on this. Thanks guys!
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Old Dec 16, 2009, 11:02 PM
Thumbflyer
IEATSRT's Avatar
Manning, AB, Canada
Joined Nov 2009
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You didn't do anything wrong by hitting the trainer switch... it is also the timer switch. The beeps you heard were at one minute intervals... normal. Only way to range check is though the scroller functions on the main menu so unless you were scrolling through your menus while flying quite certain you never went into range check either. How long did you fly?? Need some more info... what reviever.. how many servos... external BEC? You either suffered a brownout as you suggest or ran her out of power. Did she die right when you hit the gear switch to land? My best guess, since you have retracts....which means more than 4 servos and didn't mention external bec was brownout when you brought the gear down. sorry to hear about your plane.

Brandon
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 05:49 AM
Air, Ground & Water
freechip's Avatar
Canada, ON, Rockland
Joined Aug 2008
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Like the above post says, DX6i timer can be programmed to be activated using the THROTTLE CUT PUSH BUTTON or the TRAINER TOGGLE SWITCH. With the timer actived it will be once start-up and every minute until it reaches ZERO if its counting down. In your case it mite of just been counting UP.

As for the crash since you were coming in for landing and were probably coming in slow, if the plane got push around or flip cause of wind, since you are going slow and little air is flowing over the control surfaces it could of appeared as if you had no control and that the system had shut off.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 06:06 AM
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USA, FL, Green Cove Springs
Joined Jul 2008
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Doesn't the DX6i also beep if the tx battery is running low. Sounds like he might have lost his transmitter.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 09:09 AM
Thumbflyer
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Manning, AB, Canada
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ugly john View Post
Doesn't the DX6i also beep if the tx battery is running low. Sounds like he might have lost his transmitter.

Yes it does, happened to me once flying my cx2 with rechargables (they drop off fast on the bottom end). however, it a very rapid and repetitive beep and you defintaely know your in trouble... unlike the situation he described. cheers
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 09:58 AM
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Houston, TX
Joined Jan 2008
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I don't have a DX6i but I hear the trainer switch is also bind so in accidentally pushing that switch, would the TX go into a rebind mode and now you might lose or partially lose bind with the RX? Reading about these AR500 issues with certain PZ planes and considering total loss of controls, I'm really wondering if it is not "brownout" but loss of bind somehow. "Brownout" would/should still leave you with aileron control.

As for beeping when TX battery goes low, the DX7 beeps and flashes low voltage at 9V, at 8V it beeps continuously and then quickly shuts down. I was at 8.5V one time and thought, just one more flight of my FP heli whose lipo has 10 minutes flight time. When the 8V timer went off, I quickly tried to bring the heli back but didn't make it. Everything went dead and heli dropped like a rock. Luckily it was over grass so only broke one landing gear.

I'll never start a flight if voltage is anywhere near 9.5V again!!!
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 10:48 AM
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Manning, AB, Canada
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude_109 View Post
I don't have a DX6i but I hear the trainer switch is also bind so in accidentally pushing that switch, would the TX go into a rebind mode and now you might lose or partially lose bind with the RX? Reading about these AR500 issues with certain PZ planes and considering total loss of controls, I'm really wondering if it is not "brownout" but loss of bind somehow. "Brownout" would/should still leave you with aileron control.

As for beeping when TX battery goes low, the DX7 beeps and flashes low voltage at 9V, at 8V it beeps continuously and then quickly shuts down. I was at 8.5V one time and thought, just one more flight of my FP heli whose lipo has 10 minutes flight time. When the 8V timer went off, I quickly tried to bring the heli back but didn't make it. Everything went dead and heli dropped like a rock. Luckily it was over grass so only broke one landing gear.

I'll never start a flight if voltage is anywhere near 9.5V again!!!
From my experience and as the manual states...in order to get the transmitter into bind mode it has to be turned off... and hold the trainer switch as you turn on the transmitter so I'm pretty sure it didn't go into bind mode and temporarily lose bind with reciever. Even though the switch does function as both the trainer and timer... and furthermore is used for binding.. how you use it and events leading up to its use really depict how it responds. For example when I am buddyboxing after my radio is already on I hold the trainer switch and lose the function of the timer. When I am flying by myself I use it for timing by pressing it once at the start of my flight, and when I am binding I follow the steps previously mentioned. I still am betting brownout... I am not 1000% certain but I think with a brownout you tend to lose all control. Cheers

From the manual:
"4. Q: Sometimes my receiver loses its bind and won’t connect, requiring rebinding. What happens if the
bind is lost in flight?
A: The receiver will never lose its bind unless it’s instructed to. It’s important to understand that during
the binding process the receiver not only learns the GUID (code) of the transmitter but the transmitter
learns and stores the type of receiver that it’s bound to. If the trainer switch is pulled on the transmitter
at any time and the transmitter is turned on, the transmitter looks for the binding protocol signal from
a receiver. If no signal is present, the transmitter no longer has the correct information to connect to a
specific receiver and in essence the transmitter has been “unbound” from the receiver. We’ve had several
customers using transmitter stands or trays that unknowingly depress the bind button and the system is
then turned on, losing the necessary information to allow the connection to take place. We’ve also had
customers that didn’t fully understand the range test process and pull the trainer switch before turning
on the transmitter, also causing the system to “lose its bind.” If the system fails to connect, one of the
following has occurred:
• The wrong model has been selected in the model memory (ModelMatch).
• The transmitter is near conductive material (transmitter case, truck bed, etc.) and the reflected 2.4GHz
energy is preventing the system from connecting. (See #2 above)
• The trainer switch was pulled and the radio was turned on unknowingly (or knowingly) previously,
causing the transmitter to no longer recognize the receiver.".

http://www.spektrumrc.com/ProdInfo/F...nual-LoRes.pdf
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 11:03 AM
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Houston, TX
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With older firmware versions, the RX takes 2 to 6 seconds (depends on how old), to "reboot". If the RX was manufactured after April 2008 (I think), i.e. version 1.6, then servo controls are practically instantaneous. I confirmed this with my own bench testing. The throttle channel lags by a few seconds but at least you have steering capability.

One caveat in my highly unofficial bench testing is that occasionally, the servos would also take 2 seconds to recover. I wasn't able to consistently recreate those cases so can't pinpoint when those exceptions would occur. So my own conclusion is majority of the time, you'll have control but once in a while a "brownout" will act like the older firmware and delay you by a few seconds.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 11:10 AM
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Manning, AB, Canada
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude_109 View Post
With older firmware versions, the RX takes 2 to 6 seconds (depends on how old), to "reboot". If the RX was manufactured after April 2008 (I think), i.e. version 1.6, then servo controls are practically instantaneous. I confirmed this with my own bench testing. The throttle channel lags by a few seconds but at least you have steering capability.

One caveat in my highly unofficial bench testing is that occasionally, the servos would also take 2 seconds to recover. I wasn't able to consistently recreate those cases so can't pinpoint when those exceptions would occur. So my own conclusion is majority of the time, you'll have control but once in a while a "brownout" will act like the older firmware and delay you by a few seconds.
This is good to know... I have never done any bench testing.. and was under the impression that a brownout was going to give you a loss of all controll for a couple seconds.... trying to find that exact info in the manual.. i remember reading it once. If like you say in most cases with newer radio control is back almost instantaneous that is good news. Thanks for the info

Brandon
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 09:24 PM
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Houston, TX
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I've only started paying attention to 2.4 GHz since early 2008. I believe firmware V1.1 took 6 seconds or so to reconnect. Several people were experiencing this with EFlite Blade400 heli. 6 seconds of lockout in a heli is practically certain crash if not injury. V1.2 reduced the reconnect time to around 2 seconds...better but still not good enough. Latest version is V1.6 which is instantaneous. V1.6 also give you feedback of brownout by blinking to let you know that a loss of power to RX was experienced. That's the history of it from what I recall. Back in early 2008, HH started the campaign of any owner can send in a RX with older firmware and they would update or replace with a RX with latest firmware for free.

A quick and dirty bench test can be done by plugging everything in. With someone else or using your toes on the sticks, wiggle it while quickly unplugging and replugging in power. All servos should still be operational but throttle should go to fail safe mode which is throttle stick position back when you last bound the RX...usually off.

The big negative with Spectrum is that its RX is very sensitive to low power situations, "brownouts". I don't recall Futaba or Airtronics or other 2.4 GHz TX/RX having this problem. I went with Spectrum anyways when I switch from 72MHz as their RX is the cheapest of those big brands and HH customer service is very good. A good switching BEC will overcome the brownouts.

As for the bunches of reports on AR500 "locking out", there might be a rash of those RX being bad. I'm staying away from AR500s just to be safe. Only AR6100s or 6200s for me.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 10:40 PM
Your Pilot Ryan
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United States, IN, South Bend
Joined Nov 2008
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Thanks guys for all the input, my rx is the ar 6000 which can be used with dx6 and dx6i. my tx had plenty of charge also. I am leaning towards brown out. the trainer switch would have had to have been held when i turned on the tx, it was after i turned it on and before flight that i hit the trainer switch instead of retract switch and it made me paranoid. this rules out the unbinding senario, if i unbound it i wouldn't have been able to take off and fly in the first place. this is my first plane with retracts so i was using a regular 32a esc. I am thinking i will go for an external bec set up next time. Even though my battery wasn't low when i recharged it, i think with the extra draw that i may have dipped below proper voltage and browned out. It's a real head scratcher though, everything seemed fine in flight, i cycled the retracts afew times in flight and pretty much took it easy the whole time. the fact that it beeped every so often just drives me nuts. is it possible to go into range check without having scrolled the menu to get there?


These are the senarios going through my mind one after another.

thanks again guys
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 11:39 PM
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Manning, AB, Canada
Joined Nov 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryramZ View Post
Thanks guys for all the input, my rx is the ar 6000 which can be used with dx6 and dx6i. my tx had plenty of charge also. I am leaning towards brown out. the trainer switch would have had to have been held when i turned on the tx, it was after i turned it on and before flight that i hit the trainer switch instead of retract switch and it made me paranoid. this rules out the unbinding senario, if i unbound it i wouldn't have been able to take off and fly in the first place. this is my first plane with retracts so i was using a regular 32a esc. I am thinking i will go for an external bec set up next time. Even though my battery wasn't low when i recharged it, i think with the extra draw that i may have dipped below proper voltage and browned out. It's a real head scratcher though, everything seemed fine in flight, i cycled the retracts afew times in flight and pretty much took it easy the whole time. the fact that it beeped every so often just drives me nuts. is it possible to go into range check without having scrolled the menu to get there?


These are the senarios going through my mind one after another.

thanks again guys
ryramz, I am 100% certain that unless you have a faulty transmitter you could not have gone into range mode nor bind mode from what you have explained. Bind mode I previously discussed... and the following will show that unless you turned off your transmitter and held your scroll button while you were flying or scrolled through the menu to setup list then range check and then activating you should not have entered range check mode. hope that helps...

From the manual...

Range Check
RANGE CHECK: When activated the Range Check screen allows for a range check by using the trainer switch to
reduce the output power.
To Enter the RANGE Check Function
Press the ROLLER and hold while turning on the transmitter.
When SETUP LIST appears on screen release the
roller.
Alternatively the setup list can be accessed from the main screen by pressing the roller to access the ADJUST LIST,
then scrolling through the ADJUST LIST by rolling the roller to highlight SETUP LIST, then pressing the roller.
Rotate the roller to highlight RANGE and press the roller to access the range function.


upon which you would have to activate by changing the INH to ACT. I am certain this did not happen. cheers... hope you get her sorted. I say external BEC also. regards

Brandon
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