I've scaled back on my posting because the discussion has degraded into the warmers trying to play down the CRU debacle which is one of the most inane moves I have seen yet and, the thrust of the discussion has changed to "is too warming"/"is not warming". I know science, and the contents and implications of the emails and data leaked from CRU are huge. They would not be investigating these entities and researchers if there was nothing important in the leak. The really scary part of this is these were the leading scientists for global warming. Warmers say "but it represents very little of the consensus", au contraire mon frair. Scientist's around the world have based their research and findings on the temperature reconstructions of Mann et al. This means the "errors" or doctored data has been magnified exponentially. I've pointed this out before but the warmers like to gloss over it, I wonder why? You need look no further than the multiple temperature reconstruction or the spaghetti graph. And, let’s not forget we had multiple warnings about the malfeasance of this group from multiple sources including Mann's prior supervisor.

The main argument of the warmers continues to be that we are all in bed with big oil and gas; well we already debunked that so let’s move on from there.

Secondarily warmers try to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as conspiracy theory tin foil hat wearers citing some liberal final solution garbage, a distraction technique, a bad one at that and not relative to the discussion at hand.

Warmers like to throw out the idea that the scientists would have no reason to cook the books; you’re not that dumb, as Brett Baer said "PLEASE”. Notoriety, funding, influence, demand for your services, a place in the history books and all of the professional and personal perks than come along with them. People have killed for much less, I think we have established that they have a motive. Ergo they also have a motive to squash any attempt to reveal or shed light on any transgressions.

The warmer response is to post more of the same flawed data and act like it is gospel, maybe to the warmers but the rest of the world isn’t buying it.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...MHiZ0JK3kzB4IA

So much for Sherlock's vocal minority theory.

My Objectivity says, just because the books were cooked does not mean that global warming could not exist but what it does say is the science is far form settled and the process of data collection and manipulation must be restructured and taken out of the hands of politicians and policy makers to remove the chance for an appearance of bias. Full disclosure and transparency must be enforced. This is fair and inline with good scientific practices. We are not there, so any perceived consensus is a political consensus and not scientifically based.

I want to ask of you, just consider for a moment what would happen to the credibility of President Obama, Al Gore and many others if they were to admit that they jumped the gun. Even if you don't believe it consider it for a moment. This process will reveal the truth, they are not about to tell the truth if it means backing away from their position, their credibility would suffer too much. Are these the kinds of metrics we should be using to characterize a subject with carries the complexity and enormity of the consequences HCGW theory carries? hell no!

The politicians need to shut up and the scientists need to be allowed to sort the wheat from the chaff, this must be done by an inclusive international contingency not a handful of politically compromised cherry picked ideologues.

I digress, back on the politics of this deal. I'm trying to understand what the motivation is for warmers to ignore reality and insist on creating another system of control. OTOH I think that is what most people object to is the creation of yet another ambiguous draconian system of control. I guess the liberal mind is habituated to urbanized life and systems of control give them comfort. I couldn't disagree more myself.

But back to the title of the thread, it appears as though GW forgot to show up this winter, we have experienced wide spread record low temps, 1st snowfall dates and snowfall amounts. This is happening across the entire US which is much too large an event to be discarded as weather vs. climate.

This peaked my interest and I want to remind you of the Great Pacific Climate shift. This is a ~30 cycle and it involves the La Niña /El Niño phenomenon. The last shift was approx somewhere in the 1977-1979 time period so we are due to shift again. If you factor in that global temps have cooled in the last couple of years, and the change in weather patterns you get the sum of an equation that relates to its inputs quite nicely. We also know that the Great Pacific Climate shift has worldwide effects, as noted by the Australians in there research and the description of the related southern oscillation influence.

These are tangible results from a well documented and understood part of the function of our world. It doesn't resort to ambiguous theories about order less colorless gasses and or predicate the outcome on flawed output from models substituted for real observations.

The latest declaration by the EPA is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in memory. CO2 is critical to our existence on this planet. The claims by skeptics that it will dramatically increase plant growth are overstated but the premise originally came from is sound scientific knowledge. However, the claims of impeding doom from CO2 are preposterous. OTOH if the EPA steps in and starts slapping down regulations the science of GW will be put on trial due to law suits which will be a good thing. So that may yet be another way we can get to the bottom of this.

The response from the warmers on this board has been typical and lately has become completely pathetic.

Denver, Co. Denver has already had a much colder winter than they have had in many years with much more snow. What is interesting is they are having lots of problems with frozen water pipes. Also interesting are the homes built prior to 1980's all had the pipes buried much deeper to avoid this problem. As the climate warmed the builders saved money by burying pipes shallower than before. Now that the winter storms have intensified again we are finding out that our short sighted human notions are once again not followed by Mother Nature.

So I'll leave you to make up your own minds, but I believe if the planet had a soul it would be laughing at the silly humans over the HCGW theory. And, I suspect it will continue to teach us lessons as long as we inhabit this planet.

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news...z_storm_120809

http://www.sacbee.com/ourregion/story/2374422.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6755161.html

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/6750042.html

http://www.iceagenow.com/US_breaks_o...ll_records.htm

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...ed=Get+Records

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...ed=Get+Records

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/...ed=Get+Records

Record Low Temps in Alaska November 2009

Record Low Temps in Alaska December 2009

I'll stop there but I can go on and on......

I knooooow!

Now if we could get the AGW flock to do the same we could have a really nice Christmas.

Might be kind of boring though after all the excitement.


Look on the bright side
"is too warming"/"is not warming".

Your wrong!

Its COOLING!

My worry is that the drones who actually believe the lies of it will actually do something to try and turn it around and end up actually creating a real man made climate disaster. Discovery has a show where people wanted to blanket the ice, put mirrors in space, and lord knows what else they would come up with. Hell, if the seas rise we can just load up a few large rockets full of seawater and ship it off planet. Problem solved.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 3 characters.

Record cold here for a week and it looks like we will be getting snow.

Now please excuse me while I go put a few logs on the fire.

Originally Posted by Real Ira

Record cold here for a week and it looks like we will be getting snow.

Now please excuse me while I go put a few logs on the fire.

Wana buy some fire wood?

Originally Posted by WildManWillie

Wana buy some fire wood?

Got so much wood I give it away, but Thank You for the offer.

Originally Posted by Real Ira

Got so much wood I give it away, but Thank You for the offer.

Might wana hang on to it.

I hear its going to get really cold soon.

I have noticed that a number of the regular posters who I consider to be in the center or somewhat-left-of-center or to left but reasonable have been very quite since these emails have surfaced. There seems to be only a few people championing the warmer cause on LTUP lately. Anyone else notice this?

Originally Posted by rodneygt

I have noticed that a number of the regular posters who I consider to be in the center or somewhat-left-of-center or to left but reasonable have been very quite since these emails have surfaced. There seems to be only a few people championing the warmer cause on LTUP lately. Anyone else notice this?

Boycott.
Happens often when confronted with facts.
Head in sand trick.

Originally Posted by WildManWillie

Might wana hang on to it.

I hear its going to get really cold soon.

That is hard to do here.
If you stock more than two years ahead on what you will use it gets buggy and moldy due to the wet climate.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

I've scaled back on my posting because the discussion has degraded into the warmers trying to play down the CRU debacle which is one of the most inane moves I have seen yet and, the thrust of the discussion has changed to "is too warming"/"is not warming". I know science, and the contents and implications of the emails and data leaked from CRU are huge. They would not be investigating these entities and researchers if there was nothing important in the leak. The really scary part of this is these were the leading scientists for global warming. Warmers say "but it represents very little of the consensus", au contraire mon frair. Scientist's around the world have based their research and findings on the temperature reconstructions of Mann et al. This means the "errors" or doctored data has been magnified exponentially. I've pointed this out before but the warmers like to gloss over it, I wonder why? You need look no further than the multiple temperature reconstruction or the spaghetti graph. And, let’s not forget we had multiple warnings about the malfeasance of this group from multiple sources including Mann's prior supervisor.

Once again actual scientists and science journals disagree with you. This fact has been pointed out to you and you continue to ignore it. Wonder why?
Here is why:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/09/climategate-swift/

Originally Posted by Lightnin

The main argument of the warmers continues to be that we are all in bed with big oil and gas; well we already debunked that so let’s move on from there.

Big oil and gas yes they are part of the massive campaign to counter AGW. Here is another part:

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/12/07/...tboat-science/
I guess only left wing money taints the debate though.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

Secondarily warmers try to paint anyone who doesn't agree with them as conspiracy theory tin foil hat wearers citing some liberal final solution garbage, a distraction technique, a bad one at that and not relative to the discussion at hand.

Find a single gw thread that does not contain photoshoped images of Al Gore or the words to the effect of some sort of vast liberal money making conspiracy. Those "arguments" against AGW will continue to be mocked as they deserve to be. You get plenty of real discussion with links and graphs to other arguments.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

Warmers like to throw out the idea that the scientists would have no reason to cook the books; you’re not that dumb, as Brett Baer said "PLEASE”. Notoriety, funding, influence, demand for your services, a place in the history books and all of the professional and personal perks than come along with them. People have killed for much less, I think we have established that they have a motive. Ergo they also have a motive to squash any attempt to reveal or shed light on any transgressions.

Motive does not equal evidence. I want more RC planes than I have money for. Am I to be under suspicion for bank robbery now because I have motive? Calling every AGW supporting scientist into doubt because of your list of motives is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...MHiZ0JK3kzB4IA

So much for Sherlock's vocal minority theory.

The large sums of money being spent to cast doubt are having an affect. Notice that the majority sill thinks the planet is still warming and something should be done about it.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

My Objectivity says, just because the books were cooked does not mean that global warming could not exist but what it does say is the science is far form settled and the process of data collection and manipulation must be restructured and taken out of the hands of politicians and policy makers to remove the chance for an appearance of bias. Full disclosure and transparency must be enforced. This is fair and inline with good scientific practices. We are not there, so any perceived consensus is a political consensus and not scientifically based.

No one has done more than the right wing to make this a political issue. It has never been in the hands of politicians. They are acting on the scientific consensus. It is not "perceived" and it is not political. It spans the globe where many have no idea of the idealogical catfights we have over here. Where have you been insisting on full disclosure for the deniers? Your one sided bias is clear here.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

I want to ask of you, just consider for a moment what would happen to the credibility of President Obama, Al Gore and many others if they were to admit that they jumped the gun. Even if you don't believe it consider it for a moment. This process will reveal the truth, they are not about to tell the truth if it means backing away from their position, their credibility would suffer too much. Are these the kinds of metrics we should be using to characterize a subject with carries the complexity and enormity of the consequences HCGW theory carries? hell no!

I will ask you to consider the same thing for the deniers. This "process" is hypothetical and will revel a hypothetical answer. We definately should not use your hypothetical metrics to characterize any subject.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

The politicians need to shut up and the scientists need to be allowed to sort the wheat from the chaff, this must be done by an inclusive international contingency not a handful of politically compromised cherry picked ideologues.

The global scientific community that supports AGW is not a "handful of politically compromised cherry picked ideologues". When I hear you insisting on the republican polls to shut up, maybe I will give you some credit. So far you have saved your indignation for Al Gore.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

I digress, back on the politics of this deal. I'm trying to understand what the motivation is for warmers to ignore reality and insist on creating another system of control. OTOH I think that is what most people object to is the creation of yet another ambiguous draconian system of control. I guess the liberal mind is habituated to urbanized life and systems of control give them comfort. I couldn't disagree more myself.

Disagreeing with you is not ignoring "reality". Your theories about the liberal mind are right in line with the stereotypical drivel that we see here all the time. When you start with these ridiculous ideas about people in your mind, your desire to approach this debate in the scientific manor you claim to want rings hollow. Nothing new here.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

But back to the title of the thread, it appears as though GW forgot to show up this winter, we have experienced wide spread record low temps, 1st snowfall dates and snowfall amounts. This is happening across the entire US which is much too large an event to be discarded as weather vs. climate.

Yes back to the part where you show us your ignorance by repeating one of my favorite ridiculous anti-GW "proofs". Winter is not gone! So much for global warming! Its cold somewhere! So much for global warming!!

How stupid am I!! There is snow outside my window and I still believe in GW! WOOOOOPSS

Originally Posted by Lightnin

This peaked my interest and I want to remind you of the Great Pacific Climate shift. This is a ~30 cycle and it involves the La Niña /El Niño phenomenon. The last shift was approx somewhere in the 1977-1979 time period so we are due to shift again. If you factor in that global temps have cooled in the last couple of years, and the change in weather patterns you get the sum of an equation that relates to its inputs quite nicely. We also know that the Great Pacific Climate shift has worldwide effects, as noted by the Australians in there research and the description of the related southern oscillation influence.

Why don't you do a scientific paper on this as it pertains to GW with the proper methods you insist on and publish it for peer review. What? You are not a scientist? So its just more noise then.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

The latest declaration by the EPA is the most ridiculous thing I have seen in memory. CO2 is critical to our existence on this planet. The claims by skeptics that it will dramatically increase plant growth are overstated but the premise originally came from is sound scientific knowledge. However, the claims of impeding doom from CO2 are preposterous. OTOH if the EPA steps in and starts slapping down regulations the science of GW will be put on trial due to law suits which will be a good thing. So that may yet be another way we can get to the bottom of this.

It is ridiculous to you because you cannot grasp the fact that just because plants like it and we exhale it, does not mean it cannot be harmful in large quantities. It is preposterous to you because you cannot understand that flouride put in many cities water supply in very small quantities is good for your teeth but is harmful at larger concentrations. If you understood this analogy you would not find it preposterous. You might not agree with it but you would not think its preposterous.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

The response from the warmers on this board has been typical and lately has become completely pathetic.

As has the response from the deniers. So what.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

Denver, Co. Denver has already had a much colder winter than they have had in many years with much more snow. What is interesting is they are having lots of problems with frozen water pipes. Also interesting are the homes built prior to 1980's all had the pipes buried much deeper to avoid this problem. As the climate warmed the builders saved money by burying pipes shallower than before. Now that the winter storms have intensified again we are finding out that our short sighted human notions are once again not followed by Mother Nature.

Here we go again! The information on GW shows that the increase in the average tempratures will make places with droughts dryer, the places with rain wetter. Leading to larger floods in the flood plains, more blizzards in snow country ect. It does not mean it will be hot everywhere. Do you even know what the theories are that you spend so much time railing against? Aparently not.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

So I'll leave you to make up your own minds, but I believe if the planet had a soul it would be laughing at the silly humans over the HCGW theory. And, I suspect it will continue to teach us lessons as long as we inhabit this planet.

Yes it will be teaching us a very bad lesson in the form of severe consequences from AGW. But you are of course free to make up your own mind.

You spend a lot of time around here talking about methods and science. You constantly challenge methods and science of warmers but have little to say about questionable methods and science and funding of deniers. You are just and idealogue trying to pass yourself of as some kind of science pure skeptic. Your rants about the "liberal'' mindset and "habituation" give you away.

Sherlock you are a lost cause.

You have missed every time I have corrected those on the right, even in this thread.

You my friend are the only ideologue (I spelled it correctly you did not) in this discussion.

Your floundering about is the most pathetic cry for attention I have seen in a very long time.

You bring nothing into the discussion, if it is not warming talking points you don't have a discussion. You have not brought one piece of original thought into this forum. You yell louder and longer than anyone else but you don't say anything or complete a continuous stream of thought.

The sad part is your so "hooked and cooked" that you can't even see how inane your own rants are.

You have been sucked into an unfalsifiable theory, and one day you will see that you have been mislead. You will probably disappear from this board when that happens so I'll tell you now I don't hate or even dislike you, I feel sorry for you. And you'll say "I don't care/need you to feel sorry for me" but I will anyway.

I'm happy that you enjoy draconian systems of control based on manipulation and malfeasance, enjoy it while you can. Voting day is coming and when it does I think your going to be unhappy for a very, very long time.

I'm not even going to bother addressing the content of your post, it is a waste of time, many others have already eviscerated your ridiculous views.

There not much else to say, I think you said it all with this statement.

Originally Posted by Sherlock

How stupid am I!! There is snow outside my window and I still believe in GW! WOOOOOPSS

Originally Posted by Lightnin

Sherlock you are a lost cause.

You have missed every time I have corrected those on the right, even in this thread.

This is about the extent of your correction of those on the right in this thread:
"The claims by skeptics that it will dramatically increase plant growth are overstated but the premise originally came from is sound scientific knowledge."
That is pretty consistent with the level of "correction" you give the right anywhere else in here.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

You my friend are the only ideologue (I spelled it correctly you did not) in this discussion.

You know you don't have much creditability with a statement like this when you have a statement like this:

"I guess the liberal mind is habituated to urbanized life and systems of control give them comfort. I couldn't disagree more myself."

Just a few posts above it.

Your floundering about is the most pathetic cry for attention I have seen in a very long time.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

You bring nothing into the discussion, if it is not warming talking points you don't have a discussion. You have not brought one piece of original thought into this forum. You yell louder and longer than anyone else but you don't say anything or complete a continuous stream of thought.

I will remind you that when you showed up here you had nothing but personal attacks and ad homs as your arguments. You were called on this from multiple other posters from both "sides". I will take your critique with that in mind.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

I'm happy that you enjoy draconian systems of control based on manipulation and malfeasance, enjoy it while you can. Voting day is coming and when it does I think your going to be unhappy for a very, very long time.

We shall see on voting day. I will also note that you have no idea who I might like to see win and loose on voting day. You just have your preconceived notions which is at least consistent for you. Given the continued state of the republican favorables, I don't think it will turn out like you think.

Originally Posted by Lightnin

I'm not even going to bother addressing the content of your post, it is a waste of time, many others have already eviscerated your ridiculous views.

That's probably for the best.

What can I say.

More spamming the forum and obnoxious behavior by Sherlock. Just for the record, you are the late comer to this forum. I have been a member here for a long time. You consistently annoy other users and have pursued this behavior from day one.

You get what you give, and when you get it back you like to complain about it. We all know your games.