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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:43 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romano Ramirez View Post
..I do not intend to cause arguing...
We are not arguing. At least not yet.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:46 AM
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USA-Michigan
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Ok but I am confused, it says all of 18.2 (b) ceases to apply if a boat tacks.

We have a certified judge in our club, I will ask him and get back to you, via PM.

Romano: Certainly not arguing as far as I am concerned, just trying to figure it out. Having fun in this awful state I live in with cold and snow, we haven't seen open water in months so a rules discussion is something to do while not sailing. Not all of us get to enjoy a nice day of sailing with friends like you had.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 08:12 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
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Ooops. Sorry. I think that you are correct. The lead boat did lose rights when he tacked.

(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.


(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken or a
new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to markroom
passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b)
ceases to apply.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 08:39 AM
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I can't tell if the green boat had an inside overlap. Don't forget that the overlap is decided at four boat lengths and is a line drawn from the transom of the outside boat. In that case if the white boat was on an angle to the green boat he may have an overlap. It appears he may have had room inside and may have been OK except the white boat was forced to tack because of the leader being on starboard tack and at that point everything was a mess. This is a great time for skipper to talk to each other.

Gregg: glad to have the debate, you can probably tell I like to have rules discussions, always something to learn.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 09:26 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Flack View Post
I can't tell if the green boat had an inside overlap. Don't forget that the overlap is decided at four boat lengths and is a line drawn from the transom of the outside boat. In that case if the white boat was on an angle to the green boat he may have an overlap. It appears he may have had room inside and may have been OK except the white boat was forced to tack because of the leader being on starboard tack and at that point everything was a mess. This is a great time for skipper to talk to each other.
The implication of this rule is that they are on similar courses. From the small video, it is hard to make the call, but I think they were all sailing pretty much the same course to the mark. Had the green boat executed a decent rounding he would have been long gone when the other boats got there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Flack View Post
Gregg: glad to have the debate, you can probably tell I like to have rules discussions, always something to learn.
Yeah, me too. I screwed up in that I missed the second half of rule 18.2 (b)
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 09:31 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
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Not that this horse is'nt already dead, but the white boat was tacking at the time of the collision. He has no rights while tacking.

13 WHILE TACKIG
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats
until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply. If two boats are subject to this rule at the same time, the one on the other’s port side or the one astern shall keep
clear.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 09:59 AM
I love being the underdog!!!
Romano Ramirez's Avatar
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Joined Jan 2011
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My thoughts to the rounding incident

Hahaha! this is what model sailing is all about!!! its nice to be sailing in Bermuda and have a discussion about a race with fellow sailors from around the world !!! My thoughts on the incident are as follows..
- lead boat being clear ahead has all rights to round the mark as long as he does not exit the 4 boat length circle.
- both white boat and green boat entered the circle the same time ( can't measure from land ) Therefore inside boat has right of way. And according to white boat stern he has overlap.
-although white boat then appears to be clear ahead afterwards this fact is of no effect. He must keep clear of inside green boat. At least give green boat room. ( which I believe is 1 boat length )
_ white boat should keep clear of lead boat so should have took its stern leaving room for green boat. By tacking he not only fouls lead boat but also fouls green boat
_ So white boat must do penalty turn...

Today is a race for the weekly Thursday trophy, geesh! whats going to happen today?????
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Last edited by Romano Ramirez; Feb 03, 2011 at 02:46 PM. Reason: change of schedule
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 10:09 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
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I am not sure that we are looking at the same boats. I was talking about the #1 and #2 boats (as they approached the mark.) But the #2 boat did tack on top of the #3 boat as they rounded. The green boat (#3) did have rights over the white (#2) and should have been given ample room to round.
If there is any real doubt about an overlap:
18.2(d) If there is reasonable doubt that a boat obtained or broke an
overlap in time, it shall be presumed that she did not.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 06:43 PM
I love being the underdog!!!
Romano Ramirez's Avatar
Bermuda
Joined Jan 2011
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Rounding The Leeward Mark

Hello again my fellow IOM sailors!
Please watch the race and add your comments about the two boats rounding the leeward mark. Its just as much fun talking about the races as actually sailing. In this case the two boats are vying for the trophy so the stakes here are much higher as well as the tempers. Its just very competitive racing when you throw in a gold trophy!!
Please feel free to comment so we can learn and add to the global comradary that this forum provides.
IOM Race 3 Feb 2011 Bermuda Fleet (7 min 16 sec)
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:02 PM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
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Pink boat had an overlap entering the circle, therefore had rights for room. Breaking the overlap does not matter. 18.2(c)

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room.
If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken
or a
new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to markroom
passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b)
ceases to apply
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:23 PM
I love being the underdog!!!
Romano Ramirez's Avatar
Bermuda
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregg28 View Post
Pink boat had an overlap entering the circle, therefore had rights for room. Breaking the overlap does not matter. 18.2(c)

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room.
If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), she
shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is broken
or a
new overlap begins. However, if the boat entitled to markroom
passes head to wind or leaves the zone, rule 18.2(b)
ceases to apply
Thanks Greg!
Thats what I was thinking and You can hear pink boat sailor commenting that he avoided hitting the purple boat therefore missing the mark. He was told to do a penalty in which case he ended up in 4th place. I wonderif there was anything else pink boat could have done. Or if there was a question of an overlap at the circle.
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Old Feb 03, 2011, 07:55 PM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
United States, DE, Wilmington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Romano Ramirez View Post
Thanks Greg!
Thats what I was thinking and You can hear pink boat sailor commenting that he avoided hitting the purple boat therefore missing the mark. He was told to do a penalty in which case he ended up in 4th place. I wonderif there was anything else pink boat could have done. Or if there was a question of an overlap at the circle.
The pink boat could ask for redress. As far as I know, that is up to the race committee. They could give him the average of his finishes for that day or something like that.
Unfortunately, as we learned a couple of weeks ago on our J105, you must protest immediately. It took us 3 minutes to find our flag, and so the race committee had to through out the protest, though she did say that we were clearly right in the protest. So the pink boat can not protest now.
Ultimately, if he sailed with an understanding of the rules he would have known that he was right and stayed in there, or dropped back, went outside and protested immediately.
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 07:10 AM
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It is my understanding that the only way to get redress is if the boats meet these rules:

E5.5 Redress
(a) Add to rule 62.1:
(e) radio interference, or
(f) an entanglement or grounding because of the action of a boat that was breaking a rule of Part 2 or of a vessel not
racing that was required to keep clear.
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 09:56 AM
I love being the underdog!!!
Romano Ramirez's Avatar
Bermuda
Joined Jan 2011
123 Posts
rules

This may sound silly but I'm been called worse.. Where do you specifically look up these rules that you guys are using. So I can look at the same format that you are. Our fleet has not yet formalized what rules we are going to adhere to. Therefore model rules, regular sailboat rules and match racing rules sometimes get thrown together. It would be interesting if I had a concensus of what most other fleets use and we incorporate that. We have some good sailors from different sailing backgrounds.
NB. Yesterday we had a waterside talk and we discarded the circle at the top mark and gave starboard boat right of way
NB. see my updated blog page.
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Old Feb 04, 2011, 10:13 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
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Here is a link to the main racing rules.

http://www.sailing.org/racingrules.php

There is an appendix for models as Ted referred to.

http://www.sailing.org/1990.php
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