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Old Dec 25, 2010, 05:11 AM
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john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
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Shadow (IOM) Design

I have to admit I didnt know of the existance of the IOM design 'Shadow', until after speaking with Bill Curtis and him sending me pictures of the boat. As I've said before, Bill does like to experiment, and now understanding what he has done seems very contraversial initially, but to be fair he has done a good job.

The firm 'PJ Sails' has advertised and campaigned for a number of years now the (IOM) yacht 'Wotsit'.
(Picture 1 below). However, its Bill who produces the boats for 'PJ Sails.

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Description: Wotsit by PJ Sails

By taking a 'Wotsit' hull and changing the shape of the stern. Then adding a deck used from a Squiggle. (Pictures 2 & 3).

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Description: Squiggle by John Taylor Name: squiggle deck.jpg
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Description: Squiggle Deck

You have a 'Wotsit' glued to a 'Squiggle' (Picture 4). Wotsit plus Squiggle equals a 'Shadow' (IOM) yacht. (Picture 5)

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Description: Wotsit glued to a Squiggle Deck Name: Shadow.jpg
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Description: Equals 'Shadow' (IOM) Yacht

Merry Christmas (LOL)
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Old Dec 25, 2010, 06:05 AM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
103 Posts
Mike,
Its not me but a new member to the clan. Heard that he ordered the Shadow and I will be waiting to see how she handles... I am still very tempted....
Compliments of the season to All
Cheers!
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Old Dec 25, 2010, 06:15 AM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
103 Posts
Dear John,
I am honoured to be able to speak to a designer of a winning yacht. Could you humour me by answering some questions that I have on chines.
On full scale yachts, the chine lines effect is evedant but does it really make a difference when applied to 1m yachts? With our yacht speeds, the effect of particle adhesion should be minimal whereas the relation between center of effort, center of lateral resistance and center of boyancy should have a greater effect on speed is it not?
Cheers!
Scully
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Old Dec 25, 2010, 08:20 AM
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john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
196 Posts
Chine's vs Science

Scully,
Unfortunately, I am not a qualified yacht designer, so I cannot speak for the science aspect of what your asking. However, I have been designing and competing within this sport for over 25 years. Also as I am coming to the end of my current profession, at 41yrs I am becoming open to offers to start a new career, (Whatever that maybe). If my new career was something to do with R/C or full size yacht racing, with alot of studying I am sure I could be a positive addition, behind the scenes for any team / company

Without humouring you what I do know, is that a yacht's waterline length is directly related to its speed. Increasingly, over the years more and more R/C yacht designers are creating there boats from design programmes on their PC's.

When I design a R/C hull shape, I spend an awful lot of time heeling the boat on my PC, to see what happens to the hull's waterline length at different angles. For example, not all but most 'U' shaped IOM's once heeled, sit ontop of the water which causes the boats waterline length to decrease. Which is not good.

(Picture 1) Shows the bow of this IOM to be out of the water.

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Description:

Now this didnt apply to Craig Smith's / Gary Cameron's (TS2), The boat had such a large transom, giving stability that once heeled the hull kept alot of its waterline length. The only downside was the TS2's lightwind performance, too much wetted surface area. I owned a TS2 for 3 years, I competed with it in the UK (IOM) Nationals in 2002. I finished 9th, a great weekend because it was breezy.

(Picture 2) Shows Craig Smith's / Gary Cameron's TS2 design

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For R/C & IOM yachts chines have been the fashion on and off for many years. But in my opinion they are important, if the rest of the boat is designed to give the chine's a purpose. The 'Chine' is the point where the surface of the hull's shape changes. If the chine is positioned well above the waterline, to the point where there is no effect, then the Chine is useless or is just a cosmetic feature of the IOM.

A chine should be positioned on the surface of the hull at the waterline, which takes the 'U' shape out of the boat, once the boat heels the shape of the hull changes which effects the waterline length. At the heeled angle the boat is in the water, rather than on top of it. This keeps the waterline length large or at its maximum. A sort of 'V' shape is produced which also helps to minimise any sideways motion. This is good and makes the boat sail fast.

(Pictures 3 and 4) show a Lintel and a Squiggle both heeled with the hulls in the water.

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Description: Name: Squiggle.jpg
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I hope I have satisfied your quiery, but in saying all this if your late at the startline, then it doesnt matter about the Center of Effort, Lateral Resistance and Center of Buoyancy etc etc. What I have found over the years, is people to easily will blame their yachts. Instead of being realistic about their ability. On my first post I mentioned about my own IOM design having undeserved bad press, which caused me to join this forum and make a creditable argument. Designers and builders of yachts spend an enormouse amount of time developing their creations, before testing the boats out. Looking at the results of the UK's (IOM) Championship 2010. The top 3 places were taken by the Pikanto and the Lintel, yet the lowest Pikanto's place in that same championship was 58th. The lowest Lintel's place in that championship was 70th. So does that mean the Pikanto and the Lintel are bad boats. Or does it mean the skippers ability/judgement is in question?

JT www.taylormadeyachts.com
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Old Dec 25, 2010, 09:26 AM
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john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
196 Posts
Reply to Slotracer

Slotracer,
Take your time putting the boat together, I wish you success and if you require any further information. I will be glad to help. Just email if you need to.
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Old Dec 26, 2010, 06:05 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
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United States, DE, Wilmington
Joined Jun 2005
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Last edited by Gregg28; Dec 27, 2010 at 10:30 AM. Reason: I'm wasting my time.
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Old Dec 26, 2010, 09:11 AM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
103 Posts
Dear John,

Thanks for your reply. You are absolutely correct that a podium win is a reflection of ones ability and not necessairly due to the design of Yacht.

I was rather skeptical on the chines on a 1m but your explination does make sence. Having said that, being former pilot and spending years learning about the wind, airfoil shape, drag coefficient, blah blah blah... I am leaning more to a yacht's balance having a greater impact on speed.

Here are some shots of my yacht taken earlier today by my friend Ed. Not that I am campaigning this yacht for Carl but the yacht balance seems just about right even though the mast rake is a very pronounced aft rake.
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Old Dec 26, 2010, 09:13 PM
k4s
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Joined Aug 2009
391 Posts
Scully and Ed,
Carl is now back up to full speed on the boat building front.
He has 8 boats on order,a couple of Impact hulss and 5 or 6 new generation Tempest hulls.
My order is in for the new Tempest,it sounds exciting.From what I have learned talking with him and others ,Matt Mason has redesigned the bow sections to give a bit more volume,the hull foredeck join is now a radius and the run aft below waterline is slightly flatter.Also there is a bit more freeboard in the forward sections and the cockpit has been widened so that there is little to no side decks in the aft sections.
About 2 weeks away from seeing the actual boat(that is boat builders time so probably more like 3 weeks )
Will post pics when I can.
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Old Dec 27, 2010, 09:44 AM
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john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
196 Posts
Yacht Balance

Scully mentioned about a yachts balance.

A yacht know matter what the class, is balanced correctly when sailing to windward in full trim, with the skipper having no interaction with his/her controls. That means the yacht is sailing to windward on its correct course, slowly pointing up when the gusts happen, or will slowly bare off if there is a lull in the wind. A well balanced yacht needs little interaction from the skipper.

Thankyou to those who agree with everything I am saying. It shows I have learnt something over the years.

JT
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Old Dec 27, 2010, 07:04 PM
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USA-Michigan
Joined Feb 2008
108 Posts
John or anyone else,

Here is another question for you. Some IOM's have the max rocker/hull depth from waterline of 60 mm and others I have measured are closer to 50mm. What are your thoughts on more or less rocker?

The flatter ones appear to me to have about the same rocker forward of the fin and have a flatter run aft. That is just a visual observation not actually measured.
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Old Dec 28, 2010, 03:44 AM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k4s View Post
Scully and Ed,
Carl is now back up to full speed on the boat building front.
He has 8 boats on order,a couple of Impact hulss and 5 or 6 new generation Tempest hulls.
My order is in for the new Tempest,it sounds exciting.From what I have learned talking with him and others ,Matt Mason has redesigned the bow sections to give a bit more volume,the hull foredeck join is now a radius and the run aft below waterline is slightly flatter.Also there is a bit more freeboard in the forward sections and the cockpit has been widened so that there is little to no side decks in the aft sections.
About 2 weeks away from seeing the actual boat(that is boat builders time so probably more like 3 weeks )
Will post pics when I can.
Wow! Yes please...pictures...So what made you go for the new tempest considering that you already have the current model. Is the new fin really a major improvement to its design? please give me your thoughts. Is Carls new website up yet?

Cheers!

Dear John,

Sailing aside, its all about marketing I guess. Put a boat at the hands of a good sailor and you will get good results. People are easily influenced by good results. Please do take it to heart when someone has a less than satisfactory experience. For this reason I try not to post bad experiences because it may not be a fair evaluation of a good product.

Looking foward to more of your views on sailing.

Cheers!

Scully
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Old Dec 28, 2010, 09:00 AM
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john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
196 Posts
Ted and Gents,
I dont take much notice about a boats rocker, accept when it comes to the rule of the maximum hull depth will not exceed 60mm. If you design a boat that is small in the beam, then you must draw the hull deeper to achieve the minimum displacement of 4kg. Other than that I dont have any opinion on this.

As for Scullys comment.
I do take it too heart when people give bad press about my boats. (It doesnt happen often) Why! because in most cases people dont see the time and effort that is put into designing and building these yachts. Most people have a large lump of money, average ability but with aspirations that are unrealistic. Then when things dont work out they become very opinionated before actually spending enough time, learning and correcting what is wrong. I challenge these people to pick up a piece of paper / PC, design there own boat, build and launch it, and see how they get on when their designs are against everyone else.

To judge a good IOM, in my opinion you dont take any notice of the top skippers. What you do is watch those skippers who race but dont achieve a top 15 place within a Championship. Over the course of a year, if you see that skipper improve his scores or in some cases make the top 15 later in a championship, then you can say the boat is a good design.
The other way of looking at it is, how many skippers, sailing the same design are up in the top half of the finishing scores.

JT ( I like the pictures of your boat )
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Old Dec 28, 2010, 11:41 AM
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Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,057 Posts
Hi John -
just a thought/feeling from my photography and art efforts...... and not intended to be bad press relative to your boats.

For most good artists (designers/builders/whatever) - if they are their own worst critics, then bad press just comes with the territory. Some become very "thin-skinned" in which case they really need to evalute the opinions, comments and from whence they come. Trying to defend a personal design/idea/effort is usually not worth the effort, and the pros and cons of anything seldom are one-sided unless the product produced really deserves to be rated as "one star out of a possible 10". Everone has an eye and is a critic. Whether it is warranted is another issue and one can't defend everything we try to do, otherwise we need to stop doing it.

Cheers and have a Happy New Year.
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Old Jan 01, 2011, 06:48 AM
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USA-Michigan
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Happy New Year to all my friends on RC Groups.
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