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Old Jan 25, 2010, 05:25 PM
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8387mike's Avatar
Perth Western Australia
Joined Jul 2009
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Yes Larry you got that right just about everywhere i read the Tempest does well, and the Vapour which has been around for a while still wins races.
Hopeing to order one in soon and then my old TS-2 clone will be for sale

Also just to let every body know the Nationals start on Friday here is the link they update it every day.
http://www.nats2010.saradioyachting.org.au/index.htm

Mike
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Old Jan 25, 2010, 07:16 PM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
103 Posts
The Ares was originally an Australian design but the mold was sold to Ludwig Yachts (did I get the spelling right??). I wrote to him a few times and gave some feedback. I believe he tweeked the appendiges but essentially its the same yacht built with more precission and strength.

Dear Larry,

The 'Pond" we sail in is indeed ideal except when it is hot and sunny. We always come home looking like a lobster. Winds there are currently in the top of the "A" range with short chops so sailing there can be challanging as Ed mentioned. This will abruptly die down to 2 to 7 knots in March as the moonsoons shift. It would be cool to hold an international event there and get to meet the people who share the same poison....errrr I mean passion.

Will be happy to give my 2 cents in the Tuning of the Tempest as I have finally found the ideal settings after 5 mths of trial and error. Seems that its not too far from what Carl suggested for the sails I use. I just purchased a set of Power sails from Jerry Power and will try it out. I understand that they are cut much fuller than the F2 Sails Bantok designed so the results will be interesting to compare.

Cheers!
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 04:04 AM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined May 2008
424 Posts
Dear Scully,

Welcome to the forum and I appreciate that you have manners. (Dear Larry,)

You say you've had your Tempest for 5 months. Purchased direct from Carl Weatherill in NZ? I would be very interested to hear how you have tuned your boat. As I am sure would other readers (most of whom "lurk" and do not post).

You did say you have your sails 'flatter' than others. I just reread an IOM discussion thread on WindPower RCSailing Forum >LINK<. Here several IOM champions have posted talking about exactly how they setup their boats. All good stuff. I seem to recall they too preferred 'flatter' sails and nuetral helm. Take a look and tell us what you think.
Await your next post.

Yours Sincerely
Larrykin .
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 06:48 AM
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Singapore
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Dear Larry,
First of all let me say that I have been sailing for 4 years and may noy be the best person to take advice from. The tuning I have on my yacht suites my style of sailing and may not suit most sailors. Some have commented that I have "planks" for sails so beware....

I noticed that the upper 1/3 of the main sail has a lot to do with top speed and is critical in the set-up for a yacht with good upwind speed. The cord of the sails at the top is very narrow and having too much camber robs you of lift as the wind detaches from the leeward side. A good example of which are glider wings. They have long but narrow wings and the cord tends to be thin especially at the tips as a vortex will form at the trailing edge. A flatter sail in the top 1/3 reduces drag and increases efficency.

Sheeting angles too are important but whats more important is knowing when to sheet in all the way. You never have the sheets tight in from standstill as you loose a lot of power overcoming lateral resistance of the fin to get the yacht moving foward. You only sheet in and point when the yacht is moving at close to full speed. My jib is 8 deg and main is 1 deg from centerline. Flat sails and close hauled sails like this make the yacht sensitive to shifts and if you are not careful, you can stall the sails easily. The plus is that you can point very high and still maintain speed but you have t have your finger on the rudder all the time to make small corrections.

In falt water, my jib has 10% camber and main 5% camber. In choppy waters its 10% for both. Sounds odd?? Yes it does but I get the (torque) power needed to punch thru waves and the speed to keep the yacht moving. Another critical area in tuning is the amount of twist in the sails. You dont want to leak too much air from the upper end of the sails and loose drive but in the heavy stuff you can afford to loose that power if you give it more twist and the yacht will not keel as much which makes the yacht more efficient.

Finally. Spend 60% of the time looking at your boat and 40% at the others. Know where they are so you can plan your route to the next mark.

I used to be a pilot so all my settings are based on my flying experience. Situational awareness and a "bullet proof" yacht is the key to winning a race. Dont take chances as 80% of the time you will be wrong.

Picture below is the tuning of my Azetone which won the 2008 Championships. Tacht sold in Malaysia after a regatta...I am using the same settings on the Tempest.

Cheers
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:01 PM
k4s
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Joined Aug 2009
391 Posts
Interesting stuff.Heres my Tempest.This is the B rig set up for mid to top of the range wind strength.I am trying it without spreaders and it seems to work well.
In the A rig,sails are set a little bit flatter on the foot and more twist in the main.Both booms are brought in around 12 mm,main on centre line and jib about 12 mm inside the stays.Also the mast is dead straight on A rig and the mast ram is pushed aft about 2mm from that shown.
Still experimenting with these settings,good fun eh?
Stay tension is still a mystery.At the moment on A rig I put on enough tension to hold the mast in coloumn but not push it forward at the spreaders.This results in whatothers call slack stays.I like it.When a gust hits the mast automatically bends forward at the spreaders and slightly flattens the main,as the gust leaves the mast reverts to straight and the main regains its full shape.
Thats the theory anywayTesting ,testing,testing.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:23 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined May 2008
424 Posts
Dear Scully,

I have been sailing for two years. IOMs for 3 months. So I consider myself to know nothing. But I am obsessive with new skills and always jump in "boots 'n' all". I've approached this hobby from the building side. Only very recently interested in racing. Hence I had to build an IOM for myself. Now two, soon three. Last IOM build took me 2 weeks. I can't afford "store-bought" toys. I now have 4 boats. At worst point I had 7. All 1m.

Back to tuning ---

I wish more people would post excellent photos like yours which perfectly illustrate exactly what you are talking about. As soon as I finish this post I am going to retune both my IOMs and another generic 1m to the same sail camber you have for light winds. I had been sailing with about 5% camber on both sails. "Experts" keep telling me the rule is two fingers, sideways, for both sails . No matter what the wind speed. That would be about 15% camber? What about your jib leech line adjustment. Once again I was just given a magic number; 50mm gap. Or more realistic, get the jib leech curve and main leech to be identical. This makes sense. Or do you have your jib also fuller as per camber difference, 10% - 5%?
Sail draft -- odd you say sails top third should have less draft (camber). I have been making my sails with increased camber on each panel going up. So bottom foot almost zero camber. Top panel very full. Is this the opposite of what you suggest. As in a glider wing. My way of thinking is that up top the true wind speed is higher. So sail is trying to catch this wind. So more built-in camber up top.
With sail twist I am only using max. 2 turns of vang for highest winds to get about 60 of twist in an 'A' rig. In light winds obviously zero vang.
I'm sailing this afternoon for a sunset gathering. Storm winds are expected. Will try your tuning tips .

Glad you joined our forum. Love more input. Especially from someone who has won a race. Sorry Mike .

Larry.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:46 PM
k4s
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391 Posts
Larry,just as an experiment,try twisting the sails off more rather than less.Almost the same twist as when your sailing in upper wind strength range.
Ive been trying this and are quite surprised by the results.What Scully says about attachment of wind and sail comes into effect here.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:49 PM
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Sydney, Australia
Joined May 2008
424 Posts
K4s,

it's all fascinating. With me I have 2 identical boats. Difference is in the sails. Housemartin on one boat. Mine on the other. Housemartin have a fair bit of luff curve. So high tension shrouds, same backstay and mast ram out. Jibstay just enough to keep headsail smooth.
With my sails, which have minute amount of luff curve, totally different. Shrouds just tight. Same backstay or even less. Jibstay high tension. Mast ram about way out. This keeps mast straighter with only slight rake.
Have yet to race boats side by side. But I feel my sails are better performers so far. No idea which boat is better at pointing, tacking or faster. Surprising how much difference sails make. For me just glad I finally cured the weather helm problem I first had with boat #2. (Explained in earlier post.)
Soon I'll try Scully's tips on clew outhaul settings. ie flatter main than jib.

Larry.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:53 PM
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Sydney, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k4s View Post
Larry,just as an experiment,try twisting the sails off more rather than less.Almost the same twist as when your sailing in upper wind strength range.
Ive been trying this and are quite surprised by the results.What Scully says about attachment of wind and sail comes into effect here.
Dear K4s,

It's like doing a dance.... . I post then see you have posted just before me. I'll give it a try. Increasing twist that is. If no good I'll have to come over to your place and give you such a slap .

Oh yeah.... and what about a "Dear Larry," like Scully.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 05:54 PM
k4s
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Theory behind flatter main than jib is that the main sees the wind from a slightly different angle than the jib,ie more on the nose.This is also the reason for tighter sheeting angle on the main boom compared to the jib boom.
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 06:06 PM
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larrykin's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k4s View Post
Theory behind flatter main than jib is that the main sees the wind from a slightly different angle than the jib,ie more on the nose.This is also the reason for tighter sheeting angle on the main boom compared to the jib boom.
You did it again.

Everything I've read, which is alot, says both sails - same camber. The 2 finger rule is pervasive. I've read that in light winds should have totally flat sails! Also read the opposite. In very light winds increase camber to maximum. On my 1.7m boat in light winds I have about 5% camber on both. If winds get to about 20 knots reduce this to almost flat. This boat is easy to sail. Mast rake is always just back. So backstay is loose. Shrouds like guitar strings. Jib on hard. The mast is 2.3m. What does this have to do with IOMs .

I must go and do some work. Just spent 2 hours again talking about boats.

Yours Sincerely
Larry Esquire --- see Scully is teachun me mannurs .
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Old Jan 26, 2010, 07:46 PM
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ICCA's Avatar
Yuma,Az / Westport,Wa
Joined Jul 2008
39 Posts
DEAR Larry,

I'm not sure about lead not having bothered you , but I do appreciate being able to follow along with all of the information. Keep up the good work.

Dave
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Singapore
Joined Nov 2004
103 Posts
HAHA!
You guys crack me up!

Dear everyone,
Try not to copy a sailors settings just because he (or she...how I wish) has won races. Discover your own magic. I used to keep a small note book and record all my settings and the effects of these settings after the day of sailing is done. You will find that you will progress much faster as everything is doccumented and you can go back to evaluate how these changes affect the sailing.

Its a bit anal and takes out a bit of fun in the guess work but you will probably get better results.

The other alternative to going fast is to strap a brushless 400 inside the keel with folding props. I think the give away will be when the yacht is zooming past and the sails are flapping in the breeze....

We have our first race of the year this Saturday for the IOM Championships (first in the series of 9). Wish me luck...

Happy Sailing Guys!
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 02:33 AM
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Joined Apr 2002
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Scully, you are my kind of Sailor! I would enjoy sailing against you. I have still got a pile of notebooks with notes about everything; "15 degree windshift off the tea shed at Nelson Gardens when the wind is from the South West, close reach to it"

All the test flights, for all our prototypes get videoed and photographed, evey single flight has a de-brief. It is the only way to improve either you or the models.
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Old Jan 27, 2010, 03:03 AM
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larrykin's Avatar
Sydney, Australia
Joined May 2008
424 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ICCA View Post
DEAR Larry,

I'm not sure about lead not having bothered you , but I do appreciate being able to follow along with all of the information. Keep up the good work.

Dave
My Dearest David,

thank you so much for your encouragement and anticipated future support. If you were to follow all the advisements which have been written upon this, the IOM thread, you would also be sitting here sucking joyfully on a lead lollipop . (You have to read the EMO build post to get this juicy 'bon mot'.)

Dear Scully,

I just come here to pick up broads .

Mr. May,

I do beleive Scully (odd christian name) has already posted a cordial invitation to all of us. We have been invited to pop over to Singapore and have a sail in his pond. Meeting at the 'Long Bar', Raffles Hotel around the cocktail hour. And of course, make mine a Singapore Sling. Oh, how I mourn the passing of our Empire.... rule Britannia.... Britannia rules the waves.......

Insanely
Larry

Below is a pic of IOM skipper awaiting us at the Long Bar.... seriously.

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