HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
View Poll Results: If you are reading this thread are you an IOM owner
Yes 26 49.06%
No 27 50.94%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jan 03, 2012, 02:24 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
United Kingdom, Wales, The Mumbles
Joined Dec 2010
551 Posts
Hi Ralph
I think you missed the smiley at the end of my last sentence and completely miss understood my feelings! That's why smiley's etc are there in order to help relay a message whilst we are sitting at keyboards and not chatting in person
FWAL is offline Find More Posts by FWAL
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Inside EVO
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jan 03, 2012, 03:39 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
United Kingdom, Wales, The Mumbles
Joined Dec 2010
551 Posts
Hi Ralph
I hope we haven't gotten off on the wrong foot but the interpretation of rules is a very tricky subject. But this is a forum where discussion is key to it's survival.
I have aways thought of a shroud wire or rope including permanently attached adjustable end fittings as part of the rigging and what they attach to on the deck/hull as the deck/hull fitting and vice versa on the mast.
The tail of the bottlescrew in Primers case is attached (a part of) the shroud and not the deck/hull fitting.
I can understand what you are saying about the shroud tail wire being outside of the gunwhale but calling it a danger to other competitors is a bit of an exaggeration I believe. The wire is still within the beam of the hull and is certainly less dangerous than the ends of the jib or main booms. You also see a lot of back stay fittings fitted on the hull shell but don't project outboard, these have been classed within the spirit of the rules but they could cause more damage and are therefore more dangerous to other competitors.
Regarding the local measurer seeking advice from the tech committee then I will leave this up to his discretion, but as we all know even if he does complete the measurement forms and a measurement certificate issued this doesn't mean the boat is Class legal.
FWAL is offline Find More Posts by FWAL
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Inside EVO
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 04:25 AM
Suspended Account
Joined Jan 2007
1,497 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by isisagoodun View Post
FWAL
When is a fitting not a fitting and when is rigging not rigging. Semantics here!

Ralph

My question would be when is a Fitting NOT Rigging.

By looking at the pictures the Rigging Sidestay Turnbuckle appears to enter the Hull through a Flush mounted Fitting.

Strictly speaking the fitting does not appear to be outboard providing the turnbuckle is a part of the rigging & removable. Yes it extends a little oustside the hull in an unusual way but not any worse than the guys that have the Hook of their sidestay turnbuckles project outwards rather than in.

I always questioned the semantics of Rigging vs Fittings when the Counterbalance on most rigs is allowed to extend forward of the boat & become the greatest point of possible damage (Battering Ram like ) .
waboats is offline Find More Posts by waboats
Last edited by waboats; Jan 03, 2012 at 04:38 AM.
Reply With Quote  (Disabled)
Old Jan 03, 2012, 05:31 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
United Kingdom, Wales, The Mumbles
Joined Dec 2010
551 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by isisagoodun View Post

Your statement:-"I don't think I'll ever find myself in a position to have to put these facts forward to validate it's strictly within IOM rules", smacks very much as an announcement that you dont care much about the 'Spirit' of the IOM rules, nor your intention to have your boat properly certificated.

Regards,
Ralph Knowles
Sen. Measurer
Scot. District. MYA
Sorry Ralph but I fully intend to have my boat measured as I always do my best to race fairly. However, I thought that just because a boat has been issued with a measurement certificate doesn't automatically mean it complies with all the Class Rules.
Am I mistaken?
So, what I meant by the above statement is that I don't intend to find myself in a situation where I have to defend a measure's decision to issue me with completed measurement forms.
FWAL is offline Find More Posts by FWAL
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Inside EVO
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 07:09 AM
Registered User
Joined Feb 2010
32 Posts
Anyone know what is the going rate for a 2nd hand Pikanto (Less then 1 year old) from sailsetc will fetch? have one for sale.... can email me at colin470@yahoo.com with regards to the details
colin470 is offline Find More Posts by colin470
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 08:12 AM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,545 Posts
Caution

The usually good natured threads in sail boats have been known to degrade when rules interpretations are discussed
martin richards is online now Find More Posts by martin richards
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 10:32 AM
Registered User
Broughty Ferry, Dundee, Scotland
Joined Feb 2006
127 Posts
FWAL,
I think if you have a look at an Italico in the flesh so to speak, and especially Lesters Milly 3, then you will find that the backstay eye is within the line of the transom as also is the bung when installed and also the backstay arrangement on RSA 12. This is in no way a dangerous protrusion and complies with the rules. My concern with your arrangement is the protrusion outwith the gunwhale, whether it is half a mm or ten mms.As soon as the yacht heels to the same angle as your topside tumblehome, then the wire is exposed beyond the beam of the boat.
An IOM at initial/fundimental measurement MUST comply with all the rules before any measurer signs off the initial measurerment form or he should note any discrepencies in the appropriate box, and you are correct, the boat may not be class legal but a certificate may not be issued. If a certificate IS issued, then you have signed an undertaking to keep it within class rules during your ownership.
Waboats,
I think that if you read the rules carefully, you will find that a counterbalance weight which is overhanging the bow bumper is illegal and you would be in your rights to ask for that boat to be removed from the water until modifications are made to correct this. The same applies with hooks wrongly installed on the chainplates. Definitely a danger to the hull finish of fellow competitors and is anti-social behaviour.
Martin,
In no way am I intending to inititiate a degradation of any thread. I thought a forum is to help, discuss and inform contributors and is not just a place for jokes and backslapping. But if that is the opinion of the readers, then I am backing out as from now!.

Regards

R
isisagoodun is offline Find More Posts by isisagoodun
Last edited by isisagoodun; Jan 03, 2012 at 10:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 11:13 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
United Kingdom, Wales, The Mumbles
Joined Dec 2010
551 Posts
Equipment Rules of Sailing part 2 Definitions

F.1.5 Rigging
Any equipment attached at one or both ends to spars, sails or other rigging and
capable of working in tension only. Includes associated fittings which are not
permanently fixed to a hull, spar or spreader.

And

Rigging Types
(a) STANDING RIGGING
Rigging used to support a mast spar or hull spar. It may be adjustable.
Standing Rigging types:
(i) SHROUD
Rigging providing transverse support for a mast spar or hull spar and which may also provide longitudinal support......

I hope the above helps peoples understanding of the rules. My interpretation of the above is that the shroud turnbuckle and tail are 'Rigging' by means of associated fittings because they are NOT permanently fixed to the hull.
FWAL is offline Find More Posts by FWAL
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Inside EVO
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 11:14 AM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,545 Posts
Isisagoodun, the remark was definately tongue in cheek
martin richards is online now Find More Posts by martin richards
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 03, 2012, 11:35 AM
Flying without a licence
FWAL's Avatar
United Kingdom, Wales, The Mumbles
Joined Dec 2010
551 Posts
Hi Ralph
I think Martin was only trying to warn all of us to try and keep to the facts and act with some respect towards peoples differing views.
As a senior measurer I'm very interested on your opinions in respect to my shroud terminations.

I totally agree that Lester's backstay hull shell 'fitting' is within Class rules but to my mind it's still a fairly small rounded protrusion situated in an exposed position. If you want to heel my boat so the turnbuckle wire is outboard of the hull then surely we could lift Lester's bow as if going up a wave and the same could be said, it's outboard of the hull. But that is not how we measure boats so doesn't bear any relevance to the discussion.
FWAL is offline Find More Posts by FWAL
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Inside EVO
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:02 AM
Registered User
john m taylor's Avatar
Fleetwood, UK
Joined Dec 2010
213 Posts
Website Updated for 2012

Just updated my website, there are a few new designs and pictures. Please refresh your screens to collect all the updates.

Went back into the water for the first time since the US Championships and took a win, in the Northern District Winter Series race at Fleetwood. Amazing what happens when you have reliable radio equipment.

Regards
JT

Website: www.taylormadeyachts.com
john m taylor is offline Find More Posts by john m taylor
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04, 2012, 06:28 PM
Registered User
United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
Joined Feb 2010
566 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWAL View Post
Equipment Rules of Sailing part 2 Definitions

F.1.5 Rigging
Any equipment attached at one or both ends to spars, sails or other rigging and
capable of working in tension only. Includes associated fittings which are not
permanently fixed to a hull, spar or spreader.

And

Rigging Types
(a) STANDING RIGGING
Rigging used to support a mast spar or hull spar. It may be adjustable.
Standing Rigging types:
(i) SHROUD
Rigging providing transverse support for a mast spar or hull spar and which may also provide longitudinal support......

I hope the above helps peoples understanding of the rules. My interpretation of the above is that the shroud turnbuckle and tail are 'Rigging' by means of associated fittings because they are NOT permanently fixed to the hull.

Ok but:

D.2.3 FITTINGS
Fittings are unrestricted except that:
(a) Fittings that can contribute to the stiffness and/or strength and/or
watertight integrity of the hull shall be of materials permitted by D.2.1.
(b) Ball and/or roller bearings may only be used for: sheet control line blocks,
mainsail boom sheet blocks and headsail boom sheet blocks.
(c) Fittings shall not project outboard of the hull shell or deck


In my mind the shroud "Fittings" are outside the deck so they aren't legal whether they are inside the hull max beam or not.

I would want the Technical Committee to rule on this.

And I would hate to rub sides with that boat.
TedFlack is online now Find More Posts by TedFlack
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:14 PM
Registered User
hiljoball's Avatar
Canada, BC, Lake Cowichan
Joined Jul 2011
490 Posts
Hi Ted,

I disagree. I see nothing illegal.

Section D applies to the hull and its fittings, not to rigging.

Rigging is covered by sections C and F.

C.7.2 contains the limit that rigging not extend over the bow or stern.

John
hiljoball is online now Find More Posts by hiljoball
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:53 PM
k4s
Registered User
Joined Aug 2009
391 Posts
I kinda agree with Ted.Once the shroud is attached the termination point is outside the hull dimension at that point.Once the shroud is attached to the fitting,or it seems in this case the hole,it becomes part of that fitting,IMHO .
Throwing in C.7.2 is largely irrelevant in this discussion as we are not really analyzing fore and aft but rather beam.
Again as Ted say's,I would hate to rub up against this having just painted my boat.
k4s is offline Find More Posts by k4s
Reply With Quote
Old Jan 04, 2012, 07:59 PM
k4s
Registered User
Joined Aug 2009
391 Posts
Further along in the thought process....slow today....If the boat was presented unrigged I would not see a problem with it measuring.
However if it was presented for measurement rigged I wonder if it would pass.
It is certainly an elegant solution to the shroud attachment at deck level,that is why I posed the question in the first place as if it is legal it may appear on my next boat...presuming no patent applies
k4s is offline Find More Posts by k4s
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion X-3D Brushless Quadrocopter, general quadrocopter, x-ufo discussion tend2it Multirotor Talk 2529 Apr 26, 2008 07:45 PM
Discussion Kong Power Packs Info And General Discussion nitroshark Batteries and Chargers 10 Jan 12, 2008 11:33 PM
Discussion Kong Power Packs Info And General Discussion nitroshark Batteries and Chargers 32 Jan 03, 2008 03:02 PM
Discussion General Discussion PLD Australia 172 Nov 27, 2006 10:26 PM
General Discussion / Training Area zax Site Chat 0 Oct 03, 2001 01:48 PM