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Old Dec 04, 2009, 04:37 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
Build Log
Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner

Hi Team,

I have not been starting any new builds lately because I have been working away at teaching myself Rhino 3D as a model design tool. (I promise I will finish the DHC-8 and Walrus this winter as well). I think I understand 3D cad now enough to be dangerous at least. It is a steep learning curve, but after playing with Autocad, TurboCad, Solidworks, I have settled on Rhino as a pretty easy to learn tool. A bit expensive though, but not as expensive as Solidworks.

Anyways, I have been thinking about the Avro Canada C-102 Jetliner for some time and think that it is an appropriate build to at least start in 2009 as it flew 60 years ago this year. In fact, it was the first Passenger Jet designed and flown in our side of the pond and the second in the world, just behind the comet by a couple of weeks.... Oh, and our engineers thought round windows might be better than square ones on a pressurized aircraft for some reason!!!!

I am planning for an 8 foot wingspan and keep her as light as possible. I am hoping to get away with 2 high power EDF's and two empty holes, but will likely have to go with 4 EDF's.

I had started a blog on my blog page and will be working from this thread from now on.

Cheers!

Float Flyer
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 04:46 PM
I eat glue
Canada, NS, Yarmouth
Joined Jul 2006
3,469 Posts
Heh, that's not a Walrus!
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 04:53 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
Research Materials

I always find that looking for research material for obscure models is both fun and frustrating!!. I usually find good material after I start building and incorporate a number of mistakes in to the aircraft. Then I find the new material and stare at the mistake for hours, wondering if I should start over!!

Fortunately there was a book written by Jim Floyd, the head designer of the Jetliner which is great for photos and a few drawings. The book is out of print, but I did manage to secure one from EBay.

Since this aircraft did not make it to production, there are not a lot of scale drawings available for it. A few years ago, my wife bought me a desk model of the Jetliner which has been staring at me on my desk until I finally got to start designing this bird.

I bumped into a site on the net that had the flight manual and tech spec on CD. great site for a wide variety of hard to find aircraft out there. http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/ if anyone is interested.

I was able to find a number of not so good resolution pics on the net at various sites. The Canadian Aviation Museum Image Bank at http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/c...ns/image_bank/ is a great resource for Canadian Aircraft history as well.

Anyways, I have a pretty good pile of data to compile an aircraft. We will see if she flies at the end of the day!!

FF
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 04:54 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
Design Update

Bald Guy, Its a comin'!!

Here are some of the progress pics of the Jetliner as the design sits in the computer today. The Nacelles have to be reworked again as I need to shrink them a bit. I had scaled up the aircraft a bit and now can get the engine holes back to scale!! Those little RR engines are a lot smaller than any fans I can buy!! And turbines are a little out of my pocketbook range!!
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Last edited by Float Flyer; Dec 04, 2009 at 05:03 PM.
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 05:08 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
A Bit of gear Detail

I really am liking working in Rhino. you can build the parts fully in the cad program and try them out for fit before you build. Plus you get to see how they will look before you commit.

Now I need to find a low cost 3D prototyping machine.

FF
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 09:24 PM
Oh no, not again!
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United States, LA, Carencro
Joined Dec 2005
5,430 Posts
Very nice FF. There has always been a lot of speculation that the Jetliner could have been a commercial success had not Avro Canada committed so many resources to the late lamented Arrow and sidelined investment in the Jetliner. Watching with interest. Jeff
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 10:56 PM
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Keremeos, BC Canada
Joined Mar 2004
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Maybe, maybe not. The big customers were in the US, and it seems to me that the US was not happy with engines being mounted in the wing, hence the underwing mountings for Boeing, Douglas, Convair, etc. could be wrong...

Jetliner didn't leave much room for larger engines; even then it was bigger, faster, farther. The myths surrounding the Arrow grow as time goes by, everything from the "disappeared" aircraft to losing ouir entire industry: all BS, when one looks at the facts.
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Old Dec 04, 2009, 11:11 PM
Res Ipsa Aviatur
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Sonoma County CA!
Joined Jul 2007
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Wow, FF! For being a Rhino rookie you're doing a heck of a job on the CAD.

Keep it coming,

Paul
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Old Dec 07, 2009, 03:33 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
Nacelle Changes

Thanks guys. I am really enjoying Rhino and its abilities to teach an old dog new tricks!!

Regarding the potential success of the Jetliner and Avro in general, I believe that had the company been run a bit better and focus on where it needed to go, it would have been able to accomplish much more. Unfortunately, that movie that was made on the Arrow was one of the best and worst things that happened to interest another generation in our abilities in Canadian Engineering. It was a pride factor for what Canadians could do, and too much fiction thrown in to keep it real which was the bad part.

Avro had great engineering and design abilities and in typical Canadian fashion, very poor marketing and sales abilities.

As far as the Nacelle being the wrong size, they were actually designed to be modular and they were planning on bigger engines eventually. As it turned out, the RR Derwents and Nenes would fit the existing design without having to build a complex spar arrangement. The thrust ports would wrap nicely under the spar. Very unlike the Comet which had engines internal tothe wing. The Jetliner was very practical on its engine placement under the wing so it was easy to change engines and ramp maintenance with out stands etc.

As well, this design allowed for the simplest lightest main gear in history becase of the short distance from the pod to the ground.

The Jetliner design was the midway forward thinking between the trapped engines in blended wing design like the Brits were stuck on and the later standard of fully seperated engine pods on pylons which allowed for seperation of the engine program from the airframe program. I believe that Boeing went this route primarily becasue of the ability to spec out requirements for the engine and attach points and then allow for variable engine manufactures to be sought out. With the exception of the Boeing 737 advance and NG which Boeing allowed GE to control the Engine and Pylon, which in my opinion was a big mistake.... but I am wildly digressing!!!!


Regarding the model, I decided to rework the nacelles to get them more scale. I am committing to 4 of 65MM fans instead of two larger ones. This will allow me to stay more scale to the original and provide for more Thrust to Weight Ratios. Unfortunately there will be a proportional loss in bank account with that decision.

Cheers!

Float Flyer
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Last edited by Float Flyer; Dec 07, 2009 at 03:39 PM.
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Old Dec 07, 2009, 11:19 PM
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TLyttle's Avatar
Keremeos, BC Canada
Joined Mar 2004
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You're right, Floatflyer, I wasnt paying attention (as usual).

As far as Avro is concerned, The Aeroplane recently published an extensive article on the company in the UK, and they went through the same sales/leadership/management mess that Canada went through.

Looking forward to seeing the end results, should be very interesting!
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Old Dec 08, 2009, 04:42 PM
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Canada, ON, Toronto
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117" span. Twin turbine size.
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Old Dec 08, 2009, 06:15 PM
It actually Flies!
Float Flyer's Avatar
Salmon Arm, British Columbia, Canada
Joined Feb 2006
548 Posts
Wow, nice job Mike. Did it ever fly or just a cad model? Would love to hear more details. Fantastic Cad work!! The only other model of the Jetliner I have ever seen is at the Calgary Aviation Museum, not sure if it ever flew or not.


I have been working away at the nacelles as I would like them to go together as much with tab and slot assembly so that they self jig and wind up square with out a lot of need for fixturing, etc.

FF
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Old Dec 08, 2009, 06:49 PM
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Ojimy's Avatar
Cincinnati, OH
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Float Flyer View Post
The Jetliner design was the midway forward thinking between the trapped engines in blended wing design like the Brits were stuck on and the later standard of fully seperated engine pods on pylons which allowed for seperation of the engine program from the airframe program. I believe that Boeing went this route primarily becasue of the ability to spec out requirements for the engine and attach points and then allow for variable engine manufactures to be sought out. With the exception of the Boeing 737 advance and NG which Boeing allowed GE to control the Engine and Pylon, which in my opinion was a big mistake.... but I am wildly digressing!!!!
Now that we're almost 60 years into "The Jet Age," it's hard to imagine that there was once a time when there were no conventions or existing body of knowledge as to the design of jet transports. Some of the design features we now take for granted, such as podded engines, were revolutionary when first proposed. Some that we now discount, such as centrifugal-flow engines buried in "fat" wings, weren't such a hindrance to their respective aircraft, given the cruise speeds for which they were designed and the size of the airfields then in use. Even the now-laughable, low-mounted "slipper" type fuel tanks probably made sense prior to the advent of single-point, pressure refueling systems. Can you think of a better way for 2 guys, with 2 trucks and 2 stepladders, to pump 8,000 gallons of fuel via gravity in under an hour?

Boeing's interest in thin wings and "podded engines" dated back to the B-47 project of 1946, and had more to do with drag reduction at high-subsonic speeds than with alternative powerplants. Later it was found that they made the wing resistant to flutter as well. The B-47, of course, led ultimately to the 707, which did offer several alternative powerplants, allowing Boeing to tailor performance to individual operators and routes (the JT-3 engine vs. the JT-4, for example) or to make the airplane more attractive to foreign buyers (the R-R Conway). But the adaptability factor was only the icing on the cake, as they say.

A more thorough explanation of the reasoning behind the designs of the early jetliners can be found in William H. Cook's book, "The Road to the 707." He and his colleagues "wrote the book" on the subject, then he wrote a book about the subject. Fascinating read!

I don't think I've ever seen the Avro Jetliner modeled before. Good luck on your project!
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Old Dec 08, 2009, 07:02 PM
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Canada, ON, Toronto
Joined Jul 2006
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The big hassle with doing the Jet Liner is with the exhaust. The full size is 16" diameter. As the model gets larger in scale, so does the over-all weight. You have to cheat a bit to get the turbines to fit, at the same time manager the exhaust diameter needed for the engines without getting too high in weight.
It's a real trick to work out.

From what I know, the one in the Calgary museum never flew. It weighs over 125 pounds, and in those days we only had ducted fans. The power to weight ratio is just not there, not to mention that it would be illegal to fly at that weight.
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Old Dec 08, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Calgary, AB, Canada
Joined Oct 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Float Flyer View Post
... because I have been working away at teaching myself Rhino 3D as a model design tool.... but after playing with Autocad, TurboCad, Solidworks, I have settled on Rhino as a pretty easy to learn tool.
Thanks for pointing out your build thread & Rhino. Great project! Just curious about a few things:

- when you first did your outlines & such, did you stack + scale + allign 3-view jpegs, draw the model outlines & sections from there? Any tricks or techniques in this regard, or did you happen to take some screen shots of teh process?

- you mentioned solidworks. Ive been using Rhino for a while (evolved from autocad, good riddance 2d!) & considering SW for some more mechanical type stuff. I probably won't pursue it, but what did you find different or disadvatageous over rhino?

- what is your intended end-product, laser cut 2d parts, cnc 3d surface plugs/molds etc?
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