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Old Nov 20, 2011, 04:36 AM
Master of Flash
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Alsdorf/Eifel, Germany
Joined Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by elmesito View Post
Sympster, although it is a usb device, the cheap devices only interface as usb, but emulate a com port. try selecting the highest com port in the list instead, that worked for me.
Elmesito which programmer did you select from the list. I had this programmer also, and it is the only one I think is not compatible (see http://lazyzero.de/en/modellbau/kkmu...l/incompatible). What driver did you use?

Best Christian
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 05:40 AM
Chopping board captain
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United Kingdom, England, Lincs
Joined Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LazyZero View Post
Elmesito which programmer did you select from the list. I had this programmer also, and it is the only one I think is not compatible (see http://lazyzero.de/en/modellbau/kkmu...l/incompatible). What driver did you use?

Best Christian
Christian,
It looks like that programmer has no chance of working with the flash tool, that might explain why Sympster struggles.
My programmer is a mySmartUSB light, and I select STK500 from the list.
The advantage of this programmer is that is comes with a 6 pin interface.

Dan
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 10:07 AM
Fly Like A Thing Posessed!
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USA, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2010
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Originally Posted by NightRunner417 View Post
I had a real freak out just a few minutes ago during testing...
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM View Post
Rick NR417,

If you're using all 4 tractor props (rather than 2CW and 2 CCW props), then you need one opposite pair tilted about 12 degrees and the other opposite pair not tilted. Or for more yaw authority, one opposite pair tilted about 14 degrees, and the other opposite pair tilted negative two degrees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmHjejrxYwA

Simon
Thanks for the info because I am *planning* to go to all tractor props in the very near future, but that is really NOT what happened here. I've been flying this quad for days and she flies BEAUTIFULLY. In fact, yesterday, I was racing her around a local parking lot really well at 20+ mph, surprising myself at my skills despite my newbie status (lots of sim training though). This happened at the END of a successful test that I only conducted because I wanted to make sure my repairwork was all kosher on the busted motor arms from the FPV flight's spectacular tree crash ending yesterday afternoon. Also, after I replaced the broken prop from the spazz out during last night's test, and killed and restored power, she was FINE, which is what I stated in my post. This was totally some kind of a controller fluke. I'm wondering if it has happened to other people and what if anything can be done for it.

Rick NR417
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Last edited by NightRunner417; Nov 20, 2011 at 12:36 PM.
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 12:35 PM
Fly Like A Thing Posessed!
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USA, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2010
1,777 Posts
Question about motor angles for going all CCW props on a quad - Why do people adjust just two of the motors to 12 degrees each? Since all four motors are spinning the same direction and therefore all four should contributing to torque spin, why don't people angle all four motors but only half the amount - six degrees per?

Rick NR417
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 01:18 PM
If it flies, I will crash it
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USA, CO, Westminster
Joined Jan 2008
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If you tilt all of the motors the same way you will have real good yaw authority in one direction and virtually none in the other.

Rob...
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 02:00 PM
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Nederland, NB, Breda
Joined Aug 2011
44 Posts
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Originally Posted by mxspode View Post
Probably not but you can test it by throttling it up while holding it in your had over your head to say 1/4 throttle and then moving it in the direction of that particular gyro and see if it tries to fight the motion. If not probably bad. Time to hot glue is before not after. Not being sarcastic, hate to see it happen to folks.

Rob...
I read the glue thing after it fell off... I applied glue to the upstanding part of the print, but never expected the casings to fall off.

I tried it today. When moving to front to back it fights the motion. From side to side, a little. So I don't know actually. I try to fly it tomorrow.

Anyone suggestions where to get the gyro spares? It says C840 on the silver cover. Seems they are coming from the Japanese firm Murata. Can't find anything about those things on the internet of Murata's website itself.
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 02:13 PM
If it flies, I will crash it
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USA, CO, Westminster
Joined Jan 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gonzo View Post
I read the glue thing after it fell off... I applied glue to the upstanding part of the print, but never expected the casings to fall off.

I tried it today. When moving to front to back it fights the motion. From side to side, a little. So I don't know actually. I try to fly it tomorrow.

Anyone suggestions where to get the gyro spares? It says C840 on the silver cover. Seems they are coming from the Japanese firm Murata. Can't find anything about those things on the internet of Murata's website itself.
Here is one that I know of. I am sure there are more, just have to dig.

Rob...
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 02:54 PM
manuLRK
Belgium
Joined Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by mxspode View Post
Here is one that I know of. I am sure there are more, just have to dig.

Rob...
Just be sure to get in contact with them first! I made a paypal order with them and items were never shipped nor any communication!
I got a paypal refund!

So be prudent.


manu
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 03:11 PM
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Nederland, NB, Breda
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Thanks guys. I will be careful over there.

It seems this is a another part number btw.. can it be used?
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 04:55 PM
SSM
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Australia, VIC, Canterbury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NightRunner417 View Post
Question about motor angles for going all CCW props on a quad - Why do people adjust just two of the motors to 12 degrees each? Since all four motors are spinning the same direction and therefore all four should contributing to torque spin, why don't people angle all four motors but only half the amount - six degrees per?

Rick NR417
NR417 - If all motor's/props are tilted equally at 6 degrees - yes, you may balance the reaction from all four tractor props but you will not have any yaw control.

It's all about what makes a Quad yaw (or spin one way or the other).
"Conventional" Quad (with two tractor and two pusher props)
A conventional quad has all four motors mounted straight up - no tilt. When the two opposite tractor props are running, they will tend to spin or "yaw" the copter to the right - an opposite an equal reaction - or torque effect. When running, pusher props will tend to yaw the copter to the left. To yaw or spin the quad to the right, a conventional quad speeds up the two opposite tractor props and slows down the two opposite pusher props. The result of this is:
- no change to lift because the "speeding up" of one opposite pair exactly compensates for the "slowing down" of the other pair,
- no change to balance because opposite pairs are sped up, or slowed down,
- a clockwise yaw (viewed from above - ie, to the right) caused by a greater reaction from the tractor props which are sped up ... plus even more clockwise yaw caused by a lesser reaction from the pusher props which are slowed down.
Now compare this to a Quad with all tractor props:
"All Tractor" Quad (with four tractor props)
An "all tractor" quad has two opposite motors mounted straight up - these are the motor/props that (in hovering flight) tend to make the quad yaw right. If these are sped up, the quad will yaw more right. The other two motors mounted with 12 - 14 degrees of "left thrust" - these are the motors that tend to make the quad yaw left (they have 12 - 14 degrees because about 6 degrees will counter the reaction from the props, and then another 6 degrees is need to cause left yaw). If these are sped up, the quad will yaw more left.

To yaw right, an all-tractor quad speeds up the two opposite "straight-up" props and slows down the two "left-tilted" props. The result of this is:
- no change to lift because the "speeding up" compensates for the "slowing down",
- no change to balance because opposite pairs are sped up, or slowed down,
- a clockwise yaw (viewed from above - ie, to the right) caused by a greater left yaw from the "left-tilted" props which are sped up plus even more clockwise yaw caused by a lesser reaction from the "straight-up" props which are slowed down.
Simon
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 06:25 PM
Fly Like A Thing Posessed!
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USA, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM View Post
NR417 - If all motor's/props are tilted equally at 6 degrees - yes, you may balance the reaction from all four tractor props but you will not have any yaw control.

It's all about what makes a Quad yaw (or spin one way or the other).
"Conventional" Quad (with two tractor and two pusher props)
A conventional quad has all four motors mounted straight up - no tilt. When the two opposite tractor props are running, they will tend to spin or "yaw" the copter to the right - an opposite an equal reaction - or torque effect. When running, pusher props will tend to yaw the copter to the left. To yaw or spin the quad to the right, a conventional quad speeds up the two opposite tractor props and slows down the two opposite pusher props. The result of this is:
- no change to lift because the "speeding up" of one opposite pair exactly compensates for the "slowing down" of the other pair,
- no change to balance because opposite pairs are sped up, or slowed down,
- a clockwise yaw (viewed from above - ie, to the right) caused by a greater reaction from the tractor props which are sped up ... plus even more clockwise yaw caused by a lesser reaction from the pusher props which are slowed down.
Now compare this to a Quad with all tractor props:
"All Tractor" Quad (with four tractor props)
An "all tractor" quad has two opposite motors mounted straight up - these are the motor/props that (in hovering flight) tend to make the quad yaw right. If these are sped up, the quad will yaw more right. The other two motors mounted with 12 - 14 degrees of "left thrust" - these are the motors that tend to make the quad yaw left (they have 12 - 14 degrees because about 6 degrees will counter the reaction from the props, and then another 6 degrees is need to cause left yaw). If these are sped up, the quad will yaw more left.

To yaw right, an all-tractor quad speeds up the two opposite "straight-up" props and slows down the two "left-tilted" props. The result of this is:
- no change to lift because the "speeding up" compensates for the "slowing down",
- no change to balance because opposite pairs are sped up, or slowed down,
- a clockwise yaw (viewed from above - ie, to the right) caused by a greater left yaw from the "left-tilted" props which are sped up plus even more clockwise yaw caused by a lesser reaction from the "straight-up" props which are slowed down.
Simon
Thanks Simon! That's what I was wanting is a detailed explanation of the physics involved. I don't know why I wasn't "getting it" before, but as soon as I read, "they have 12 - 14 degrees because about 6 degrees will counter the reaction from the props, and then another 6 degrees is need to cause left yaw", then for some reason it all clicked into place in my head. It's a controlled unbalanced system, with a kind of a lopsided V shape that controls left and right yaw. I get it now, just needed a good thorough breakdown of how it works. :-)

Now the tough part... I have to decide how to go about the mounting of the motors and how to produce the angle. I've fooled with drilling the mounting holes at an angle already on some 12"x7/16" dowel rod and I have to say it's tricky at best with the tools I have on hand. I like that method best because it can't drift - it's locked in place and only wood warping would change anything. The other method is by using clamps on the motor mounts for the two arms that need to be angled. This is obviously way simpler to pull off, but I don't want the clamps to slip over time, and I REALLY don't want them slipping during flight.... Nevertheless I will likely go for the clamp method because then I can even try the earlier suggestion of 14 degrees on one pair and -2 on the other for increased yaw authority if I feel I need it, and I won't have to play complicated games with hole drilling.

All I need to do is come up with a clamping system that is rock stable, very rigid when tightened... Hose clamps... small diameter hose clamps that could fit over the two end tabs on the existing X mounts for each motor. The sharp metal slots in the clamps would dig into the wood of the motor arms, and having two on each motor X mount would provide a level of rigidity that should be far more than adequate. Even better, small hose clamps don't weigh much. A bit butt ugly and rednecky but definitely functional, and totally adjustment-friendly. I like! :-)

Rick NR417
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 07:11 PM
SSM
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NR417 - see also my post 9165.

See this picture for how I angle motors/props.

Simon
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Old Nov 20, 2011, 07:38 PM
Fly Like A Thing Posessed!
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USA, FL, Fort Myers
Joined Nov 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSM View Post
NR417 - see also my post 9165.

See this picture for how I angle motors/props.

Simon
Ah so you're using wedges... that's an interesting idea as well. Aaaaand you just reminded me that I need to buy dowels!

Rick NR417
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Old Nov 21, 2011, 12:33 PM
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Joined Dec 2005
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Hi all,
does anyone have experience using the HK Board with KK Software for a plane (e.g. parkflyer) ?
did you have any success ??
what kind of servos would work with the high refresh rate ?
does it make sense - or why not ??
is there something special to take care , any help is appreciated ..

i went through this mega thread, but was not able to find answers..

thx in advance

tom
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Old Nov 21, 2011, 12:55 PM
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Joined Dec 2010
156 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by backbone10 View Post
Hi all,
does anyone have experience using the HK Board with KK Software for a plane (e.g. parkflyer) ?
did you have any success ??
what kind of servos would work with the high refresh rate ?
does it make sense - or why not ??
is there something special to take care , any help is appreciated ..

i went through this mega thread, but was not able to find answers..

thx in advance

tom
i have the kk blackboard and use it on a tricopter so one of my outputs goes to the yaw servo. i've heard it's good to use a digital servo for good centering and ability to handly higher pulses but i just use hitec - hs65mg analog and haven't had any problems.
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