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Old Jan 12, 2011, 03:41 PM
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BG, I think it is max of 30 degrees there on flaps in simulator, similar angle as on real diamond 2500. I will try to show tomorrow in video.

Real testing results of diamond with flaps on in the thermal wind would be of course very helpful Phil to know!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BG Bengtsson View Post
Nice to talk to you all again! Our new friend fromPortugal triggered us to post!

Phil! What to say!!?? Is that electric?
Did you put a camera under the D?

Phil you are the only guy to test full flaps in thermal in january! Is that working?
Well, maybe max 30degrees but not 80-90!?
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Old Jan 12, 2011, 05:20 PM
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LaPine,OR Quarztsite AZ
Joined Nov 2008
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Hi Guys!, it's good to hear from everybody, and see some action on our thread again. i will be contributing a little more in the upcoming weeks....in my personal preference for RC thermaling , i like the flaps up. the sailship has a better feel and reaction to wiffs of lift, and is not as slow moving or reacting...of course this is my own flying technique, and you may find that just the opposite works for you. here's a foto with linda and my everyday flyer
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Old Jan 13, 2011, 12:20 PM
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Portugal
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so, people, you guys think it is possible to move from one easystar, to a small cessna with 4ch and then to this big glider?

I read it somewhere: "Bigger they are, better they fly" can i buy one diamond without fear? only need a big area to practice?

And B.G. I have one volvo too, the S70 (not v70, but big enough) so i can go to the field with this monster
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Old Jan 13, 2011, 01:22 PM
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Well, regarding the car: I picked up the box in a Volvo S80 and had big problems to load!
The box is 17x43x157 cm so you can measure...

Without fear?! First time you need some fear.
But I do not think you need the Cessna in between... But if you have a simulator, flying practice is always valuable...
/BG

(I did add some tips to my previous post)

And Phil: More details on the light. And report from fly-in...
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Old Jan 14, 2011, 02:32 PM
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Czech Republic, Olomouc
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Flying in thermal winds - my winter training with simulator

Hi, I just uploaded some video showing me how do I train flying in thermal wind with Diamond in simulator. Originally I was not able to fly/to stay there in thermal wind without regular use of engine help. But my skills improved a lot. First, without help of engine at all (only on start to get height), I was able to fly and to stay there in the thermal wind nearly unlimited time, if I used flaps. Flaps helped me a lot to lower the Diamond glider speed, so I had more time to control the Diamond the way that I was able to control/to turn fast enough to be able to stay in the small thermal wind area. I had to also control the glider the way to not loose height much during flight and in fast turns which are needed to stay in the small thermal wind area. I tried to prepare video to show how I fly in the thermal wind and at the same time I trained a lot. Finally my skills improved a lot the way, that I can fly and stay in thermal wind even without use of flaps and I can fly also in the thermal wind unlimited time without single use of engine at all. I am able to make fast turns without loosing much height even without flaps. I would like to share my experiences I observed and learned using youtube video. Hope that it will help.

Diamond 2500 - Flying in thermal winds - my winter training with simulator (14 min 56 sec)


The video is little long. Maybe it could be little boring after some time.
In the first part I fly with flaps on. In the middle part (1 minute) I just show how diamond fly with use of engine and propeller in the simulator. In the last part I demonstrate how I fly in thermal wind even without use of flaps.
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Old Jan 14, 2011, 04:42 PM
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Hi Pavel
I think that seems to be a good program for training. I say the following knowing I am talking with litteraly hundreds of guys around, much more skilled then I am...
Looking to your video I got some thoughts:
1. You should train in circling, with and without thermalling. You are flying to much back and forth. Nice constant circles round round round... Start with no thermal activity. Fly up on motor and circle with constant speed and radius. Learn to keep the circle constant with as little stick movement as possible.
2. You do too big stick movement.
3. In the beginning: use only aileron and elevator.
4. Much more banking. Circle with 30-45 degrees angle to learn keeping the constant circle. Small circle, more banking/ angle big circle less angle.
5. Do not loose speed. You are down to 30km/h. That is 8.3m/s stall speed at straight flight. And turning is impossible at that low speed.
6. To see what the thermal wind does to the plane just fly straight through the soaring air, with around 40km/h speed. Then you learn how it looks like when the air is lifting the plane. You can see it in the video several times very clearly. Look on your plane not the arrows in the air!
Good luck!
your friend
BG
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Old Jan 14, 2011, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRFASTPHIL View Post
Hi Guys, just a small tip to let you know that the Diamond 2500 is now available from NitroPlanes for $209 RTF
That is a good deal. Thanks for the heads up! I don't know how anyone would find it otherwise. I had to do a search for "Diamond 2500". It was NOT listed when I did a search for RTF "Art-Tech" models.

Keep in mind the Banana Hobby kit that sells for $275-$295 is way better because...
Banana hobby includes a 60 Amp speed controller, Nitroplanes is a 40 Amp speed controller.
Banana hobby has the 4 cell 2500 mah battery, Nitro planes lists the battery as a 3 cell 11.1 Volt 2200 mah
Banana hobby includes the servos for the flaps, Nitroplanes does not.

Both of these planes are good value but I've been flying the banana hobby version and love the 4 cell power. I've flown it on a 3 cell and it's not in the same leauge.
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Old Jan 14, 2011, 06:19 PM
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Flying in thermal wind field

Hi BG

Thanks for your advices. But let me try to explain the intend of the video demonstration I did and explain that strange observed style of flaying there.

Quote:
1. You should train in circling, with and without thermalling. You are flying to much back and forth. Nice constant circles round round round... Start with no thermal activity. Fly up on motor and circle with constant speed and radius. Learn to keep the circle constant with as little stick movement as possible.
Yes, it is simple to say that I am flying too much back and forth. But first issue was to record video at all from simulator, since there is not built in easy option. So I had to find out own method to be able to record something. Issue is that you need to record/encode video which is processor hungry process and at the same time you are playing with processor intensive simulator application with your PC. And you need to have responsive simulator application to be able to fly nicely. To be able to achieve that, you need to lower graphics resolution to possible working resolution to be able to do that. First you need to find suitable program to record open gl video, which not every program is suitable for. I tried multiple of them. Then you need to select correct video encoder to be able to play with simulator and to be able to encode recorded video to hard disk simultaneously. This is very processor hungry process. If you solve this (if you were able to find suitable codec and suitable configuration of that codec among a lot of combinations). Then you can concentrate on the fly then. But you fly and record video and then you find out that video codec you used or configuration was not OK, so you have to record video again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again. If you were success and recorded something. It was really difficult then to edit it. Since even you even recorded some video with some codec to hard disk, the result video file can not be in the correct format which iMovie is able to read, to be able to edit it. So again I had to find right encoder first which would allow me to convert to the supported iMovie format. Then you can concentrate on editing of video with iMovie. Which if you tried that, is not easy process also. Still you do not win, since it takes a lot of time to edit it. Very hard work, although I like to play with it to learn something. So hopefully you understand that circles were not circles but sometimes back and forth things happened which were caused by mistakes, which of course are recorded with video.

Quote:
2. You do too big stick movement.
I would recommend to try also you to fly in the simulator, since it is not easy, to let you know. You can not do simple slow circles and at the same time to stay in that area where wind helps you to get heigher. If you do slow circle, then you would be fast away of the thermal wind field. I would recommend to tray that in simulator to you. It is simple said. But it simply happens there without excuse. It took me time to learn a way how to stay in that thermal field there. Without any help of engine as can be see in video.

Quote:
3. In the beginning: use only aileron and elevator.
I also learn to fly normally without thermal wind just circles. But I can tell you if you do slow circles in this small thermal field, you would easily over fly the area and in this case you would loose height. You would need to use propeller to be able to get back to the thermal field and to get some height back. But this was not intend in this video to use engine. I wanted to show that it is possible to fly eg. 10 minutes or more without single use of propeller/engine help. The intend was not to demonstrate how nicely the flight looks or not. Even YouTube does not allow to upload nice sharp video where you would see more. I would need to try vimeo next time.

Quote:
4. Much more banking. Circle with 30-45 degrees angle to learn keeping the constant circle. Small circle, more banking/ angle big circle less angle.
I do big movements to not over fly thermal field. That it is why. If I would do small movements, then I would over fly thermal field and would have to use propeller to get back to the thermal field. You can trust me. I tried that before. There is not other way, just fast turns to get fast back to the thermal field. The way you do not need to use help of propeller to get back and to get back your height. Instead use thermal wind instead of propeller. Intend in the video was to demonstrate that propeller is not needed if right moves are done even for this small thermal field.

Quote:
3. In the beginning: use only aileron and elevator.
You can be sure I use only aileron and elevator until I needed to make that fast turns. Which are required to stay in the thermal field to return fast enough to the area where wind helps you get heigher. If you would use just aileron and elevator you would not be fast enough to return to be able to stay in that thermal field in simulator. I only would recommend to try that to understand what I mean. But I tried that multiple times, until I found a way how to stay in thermal field and at the same time to not use propeller. I am training for possible real flight in thermal wind - in possible small area. I do not expect that there will be large thermal field ready for me but I do not know. If I will observe the place where is thermal field with my Diamond, I would like to be ready to able to stay there without help of propeller. Not just to start to learn there. Which is intend of my current training and video.

As I said. Constant slow circle does not work in this case in this small thermal field which is in the simulator. You need to make fast turns. Even they do not look so majestic.

Quote:
5. Do not loose speed. You are down to 30km/h. That is 8.3m/s stall speed at straight flight. And turning is impossible at that low speed.
You loose speed if you go up a little with glider. But you get height in return. It is not problem if thermal wind also helps you at the same time in thermal field area you get even more height. I had to flight that way because, there is not much any better way to stay in thermal field for free, without use of engine at all, if you understand me. You can see how long time I flew there for free. Without any use of engine! It is what was intended to show and to demonstrate what diamond should be capable of. I want to be able to fly that way for free without engine so I can use it with real diamond outside of the simulator when such thermal field will be observed.

Quote:
6. To see what the thermal wind does to the plane just fly straight through the soaring air, with around 40km/h speed. Then you learn how it looks like when the air is lifting the plane. You can see it in the video several times very clearly. Look on your plane not the arrows in the air!
Of course I see when it lifts up, but the strenght of the thermal wind is not constant in that thermal field in every place. If you would not do fast circle at the right place, then you would either over fly the thermal field or you would not be at the right place, where wind lifts you up.

It is hard to explain without you try that. I would expect that you on the first try there that you would end with start to help to stay in that thermal field with help of propeller if you would try to fly in this simulator thermal field there. You would need to change tactic to go fast glider turns tactic way to be able to stay in the strongest part of the thermal field as long as possible which helps you get heigher and higher.

Hope you understand my clarification. It is really difficult to explain without you try.

Guys, anybody has real experience how thermal fields behave how big thermal fields are, how strong are, and how to fly there without help of propeller to stay there for free without help or use of engine at all to get heigher and heigher similarly like I tried in this demonstration video? Are thermal fields large or small area? Strong or weak?

Regards,
Pavel
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Old Jan 14, 2011, 10:54 PM
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LaPine,OR Quarztsite AZ
Joined Nov 2008
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Hi Guys!...we had a club fun fly yesterday and a good time was had by all, warm 78 degrees with only a hint of wind....today i had my Diamond out and got in two battery packs for easily two hours flying time. i do beleive the Diamond thermals better with flaps up, and one of it's best features is the ability to move across the sky searching for lift, without losing any altitude. i had the Diamond inverted for several passes and when entering an outside loop, it tracks straight and comes out right where it started...it's hard to get any plane to do it that pretty and easily. when pointed up towards the white clouds indicting lift, it will reach altitude in moments, and stay up there for an hour. i fly my Diamond from a chair , with a cup of coffee, because i know i'll be up for a while. i am using the flaps for landings, and put her right in front, in the center of the runway...i really like this plane!....PAV, i think some pretty good advice is to trim your Diamond for straight and level flight, keep her moving, and watch for any wings lifting or the glider wandering off course, there is probably thermal air rising. i circle back and feel the diameter of the thermal, holding the wings as flat as i can. hold your elevator stick back as much as you can without stalling her...keep her moving...our Diamond's wing really works with a little forward speed.
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 04:10 AM
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Hi All!
Pavel, I only expressed some thoughts I got when looking to the video. Everybody has to learn them self by doing, and I think you do a good job there learning by practising with the simulator. Interesting that they do not have a build in recorder...? I did fly a lot on a good simulator a couple of years ago. Good luck with your training. Maybe the thermals in the simulator is too small. In reality you can not catch too narrow ones.
I still think learning to fly in circles is a good training...
I practise a lot with motor on on a very low power, just to keep her on same level at a speed just abouve stall. Then it is easier to see small thermals and to stay...

Phil, nice to see your fly in. You have perfect wether now. Here we have had som degees abouve freesing some days, but now we got new snowing early morning. I will have breakfast now... take care... BG
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 06:21 AM
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They do not have built in video recorder to the video format to be able to play it with standard video player or to be able to upload it to youtube. There is only recorder which result file is possible to play only with the same simulator.

Otherwise the simulator is pretty good for everything! Gliders, Helis, acrobats, jets, ....

I just want to tell that everybody always fly differently if you fly for real and if you fly just in the simulator.

If you fly for real, everybody fly for safe, to not to get to dangerous situations by mistake or by intend. You know what is the price of the airplane and what it would take to repair it or to build on buy new.

In opposite in simulator situation is different. Flying just circles would be pretty boring soon. Everybody wish to try what you can not simply try with real airplane. You know that crash in simulator means jut to hit some button again and you can start with new airplane always. You know it cost just one hit of the key.

So in simulator you fly for extreme which you normally can not afford for real.
You do fast movements, extreme situations, fast turns. Also you try slow circles first of course. You just wish to be ready for real best possible way.
So you can handle every possible situation best possible and also fast way.

The intend of the video was not to show nice circles. But to show that Diamond is able to fly without motor for hours. And to discuss this.

I appreciate Phil real testing in this. That he confirmed that with flaps it is good to fly in thermal wind, to get better sensitivity. This is important result from this research, training and testing and video demonstration.

I appreciate very all BG and Phil advices, but I have some testing results also to show and to discuss.

When I discussed with guys here about thermal flying. They told me that thermal behavior is usually above roads and maybe forest usually in my area where I live. That is why I train in simulator to be able to use this opportunity.

In my short rc flying carrier I did not have many opportunities to observe thermal behavior and to fly in there. I started to fly at the end of summer last year. But really I flew mostly on autumn and start of winter. Where thermal wind is not that much observed. Still anyway I concentrated on different things at that moment.

So I look forward on summer to try to fly in hot whether, so hopefully my time in simulator will be used maximally.

Anyway it is good to train mind and hands in extremes in simulator you can prepare there instead of to try extremes for real.

Anyway thanks for advices. Important result is that Diamond is more sensitive with flaps. And that also without use of flaps you can still fly for hours if you are in thermal wind area with Diamond.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BG Bengtsson View Post
Hi All!
Pavel, I only expressed some thoughts I got when looking to the video. Everybody has to learn them self by doing, and I think you do a good job there learning by practising with the simulator. Interesting that they do not have a build in recorder...? I did fly a lot on a good simulator a couple of years ago. Good luck with your training. Maybe the thermals in the simulator is too small. In reality you can not catch too narrow ones.
I still think learning to fly in circles is a good training...
I practise a lot with motor on on a very low power, just to keep her on same level at a speed just abouve stall. Then it is easier to see small thermals and to stay...

Phil, nice to see your fly in. You have perfect wether now. Here we have had som degees abouve freesing some days, but now we got new snowing early morning. I will have breakfast now... take care... BG
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 07:27 AM
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Hi fellows Diamond pilots! Nothing interesting for people like you, just to give news to these who welcomed me in the Diamond world : mine has finally flown (and crashed - depth inverted, you had told me to watch, BG B, but too excited). Repaired, and now no problem, except that today I landed in a sand square (not seen from distance) and the motor "swallowed" some sand... Cleaned and rotating, but I wait for next flight to claim victory.
I glued a block of "ice-cream box" plastic, as support for a GoPro camera, and it works.
Thank you for all the interesting things I read from you all, hope to give my tribute, from now...
Good flight everyone
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 07:52 AM
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Papangue I know the fealing to be airborne first time!!! It is like hunting first time... The first shoot. Heart beat 200+...
Just a recomendation to your interesting mount: Put a wire in the cam-mount and down secure around the wing hole. If the camera breaks off...
I hope you have cleaned the inner of the motor carefully!
Good luck.
Waiting for pictures...

Pavel. Regarding simulator. I did fly simulator very intensively five-six years ago. After several hours with the simulator I realised that I did an error during flying. When I was bypassing myself, from right to left, and then should do a right turn just in front of me I did a dive instead! I pushed the stick forward, in the direction from my point of view that I whanted the plane to go!! It is mixing of different coordinate systems that is the biggest problems with flying, I think! And for that training the simulator is a very good tool. For me, hours of "boring" circling has been a good training. But I think that what ever you do in the simulator is good, especially for this cordinate transformation, to learn to act as sitting in the plane.
/BG
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 09:48 AM
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GoPro, premiére (3 min 23 sec)


some pictures (GoPro HD) - no snow here
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Old Jan 15, 2011, 09:55 AM
USA: LakeGeorge, New York
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Nice Vid Papangue :-)

what glue did you use to mount that block to the fuselage?
Just glue?
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