Discussion Proposal of additional tasks for F3K, from Denmark

[Richard S]

I was at a contest in Italy earlier this year where they flew the following task : -

Each flight must be at least 3 seconds longer than the previous scoring flight. Minimum of 2 flights. 1st flight must be at least 30 seconds.

This provides lots of opportunity for tactics, as fewer launches means more time in the air but at a much highter risk of not being able to achieve the next time.

It also means that the pilot and timer must work together to understand how to approch the end of the slot, so the model is in the air and scoring points when the buzzer sounds.

It is effectively a target time task where you still gain points for overflying each target.

[G_T]

That round could penalize a pilot even more for a slight miscommunication with the timer than the Poker task. It is a threshold task masking itself as something else.

Not enough sleep, so sorry if I sound short.

Gerald

[tom43004]

There are only two tasks in HLG... tasks that take up the entire window (turnaround tasks) and those that provide some slack time (strategy tasks.)

You can play with the numbers all you want but it won't cause any more separation at the top of the field than there is today.

Anything less than three minutes isn't a duration flight anymore to the top pilots anyhow. Whether it's 5x2 or 4x2.5, it's still a turnaround contest.

Lengthening the windows won't help either. If you want separation, fly seeded man on man, pool the timers and draw before each round, or increase the single flight times beyond 5 minutes.

As for altitude restrictions, that's a lame excuse. How are you policing that anyhow?

[Richard S]

Originally Posted by G_T

That round could penalize a pilot even more for a slight miscommunication with the timer than the Poker task. It is a threshold task masking itself as something else.

yes. it is a threshold task. Yes F3K is a team event of timer and pilot.

However there is no reason why the pilot cannot keep the threshold below 90 seconds for the whole round if they are worried about not reaching a threshold.

I do like the fact threshold tasks can provide good separation in scores... I dislike that they provide an oppotunity to cheat

I have flown a similar task using 12 flights in the slot and dropping only 30 seconds.. my longest flight was only 72 seconds... No worries about unachievable thresholds there!!

I have also flown the task with just two flights, dropping 3 seconds

You can decide the tactics to fly the task, lots of short flights or a few long flights.

[MGerstgrasser]

Originally Posted by Richard S

Each flight must be at least 3 seconds longer than the previous scoring flight. Minimum of 2 flights. 1st flight must be at least 30 seconds.

This is very similar to the old Task F (increasing time. Every flight has to be longer than the previous flight to count), that was part of the provisional F3K class rules until 2007. Unfortunately this task did not make it into the task list of the official F3K class.
Yes, it's a threshold task, but it's up to the competitor, to decide, whether he targets more and shorter flights with a last flight time no more than 2min or if he takes the risk to increase flight times faster and gain some ground time. If he took this route and cannot reach the next target time, he deserves to be penalized.
Downside is: This task can create a lot of workload for the timer and a potential huge loss of points, if the timer errs on calculating the max length of the pre-last flight - which is not that easy with two running clocks - one counting up the flight time and the other counting down the slot time. But this could be managed quite well with the smart clocks available now (e.g. DLGTime for the palm devices)

I've once flown this task in a deciding set with increased working time of 20min. The task was won by a competitor who made only two launches - one of less than a minute to check the air and a second flight of 19+ min till end of the working time. Hero or zero...

Would be nice to have that task back on the list

Regards,
Matthias

[Thermaln2]

Originally Posted by MGerstgrasser

I've once flown this task in a deciding set with increased working time of 20min. The task was won by a competitor who made only two launches - one of less than a minute to check the air and a second flight of 19+ min till end of the working time. Hero or zero...

Regards,
Matthias

There used to be a task at the IHLGF of 3 flight, each longer than the last, no max for a flight. the tactic was , throw for 30 seconds to sample the air, then throw for 1 minute to find the thermal and center, then land and throw back into the thermal for the remaining time max, landing at the buzzer. It was just like the event you describe, and was hero or zero as you state.

Downside is: This task can create a lot of workload for the timer and a potential huge loss of points, if the timer errs on calculating the max length of the pre-last flight - which is not that easy with two running clocks - one counting up the flight time and the other counting down the slot time.
Matthias

I am somewhat confused, one minute we are talking about the timer being a team member and the pilot/timer being the team, and the next minute we are talking abot the pilot having to fly the turn-arounds and tactics/strategy. Which are the tasks trying to address, what the pilto should do, what the time must do, or really both.

Perhaps we should propose a two man team as the "individual", and have F3K be like say pylon racing? Wierd, huh?

[Fly2High]

I have a question for anyone saying that any set of tasks or rules is fine. The question I have is that are they of the type resistant to change or do they actually feel that any fixed system can last through all time?

Maybe I am more open to change and evolution than most. I do not know. Maybe other simply like to contribute to this hobby by improving rules. That is their contribution. I don't know.

Many state that they like DLGs because the contests are challenging. Where is the challenge if, when the time comes, that the equipment makes the tasks easier? what is wrong with being prepared for that eventuality? We already saw that the javelin tasks had to go and unless someone came up with better tasks, where would F3K be now?

Wouldn't it be harder if the tasks constantly evolved? Sure it is harder to practice a task but afterall isn't all DLG flying about reading/locating thermals, launching high and quick turnarounds? I may be missing some other attributes or oversimplifying this but what I am saying is that there is a finite set of skills that pertain to flying DLGs. Any pilot should be able to fly any task and if their skills are tops, do it well.

I look at golf. The Task, ie. course, always changes. Pros need to make decisions based on course demands, weather, etc. They do not always play every competition on the one layout. Even the same course can change as time goes on. Bethpage has changed since it was first played, then updated for 2002 and still changed for the next US Open. Did they add more rounds to golf to get a winner? Long ago I think they did but over the last couple decades they have not. They only made the courses harder. The 'TASKS' were made more challenging.

As for less rounds, if the tasks were more challenging and yielded greater spacing between pilots then this would make up for it. I feel that more rounds are needed predominantly when contests get tighter. If the task were harder, then we may not need so many rounds.

As for proposing them, leave it to the politicians/representatives at FAI decide if we need more or not. No one says you have to offer all of the tasks a t your contest and for those wishing to be more challenging, they can offer the new ones.

Propose them. Either they will be flown or like the ladder,Poker and all threshold tasks, they will not be flown and one day removed.

Either way, thank you for your contributions. They are appreciated.

[Richard S]

Hi Matthias, Chris,

The old Task F was a real favourite in UK League events. I really like the idea of the task that Chris describes too, it promotes tactical thinking and aggressive flying.

By Team event I mean that a combination of pilot and timer in F3K is similar to that of a pilot and his helpers in F3J and F3B (these are the other soaring diciplines I am familiar with)

Quite often a round is maxed after good advice from a timer.. when Hayley times for me she is able to keep watches on several other pilots so we can understand what risks I need to take to achieve a good score. I definately see us as a 2 person team as more often than not, the advice I get gives me an advantage.

[Richard S]

Originally Posted by Fly2High

Wouldn't it be harder if the tasks constantly evolved? Sure it is harder to practice a task but afterall isn't all DLG flying about reading/locating thermals, launching high and quick turnarounds? I may be missing some other attributes or oversimplifying this but what I am saying is that there is a finite set of skills that pertain to flying DLGs.

One of the other major attributes that makes F3K unique is the requirement to be able to predict the performance of your next flight before you launch. Unlike other thermal soaring diciplines where everone launches on the buzzer, some F3K tasks require the pilot to sometimes hold back and read the air to decide the best time to launch. last flight, last 2 flights, and poker have a real requirement for this type of tactic.

As for proposing them, leave it to the politicians/representatives at FAI decide if we need more or not. No one says you have to offer all of the tasks a t your contest and for those wishing to be more challenging, they can offer the new ones.

You put a lot of faith in the CIAM/FAI... remember when the rules get to this level for discussion there is rarely anyone in the room who has ever flown F3K! Each nations deligate normally relys on the direction given to them from pilots who do fly F3K.

For this reason when making a proposal for a rule change, it is a good idea to canvas various other countries for support so they can also advise their respective deligates of their wishes.

[Phil Barnes]

Originally Posted by Richard S

I was at a contest in Italy earlier this year where they flew the following task : -

Each flight must be at least 3 seconds longer than the previous scoring flight. Minimum of 2 flights. 1st flight must be at least 30 seconds.

Interestingly, this exact task was commonly flown at Polecat before switching to F3K tasks. I hated that task in the same way I hate Poker. I once royally screwed a pilot I was timing for in that task when I incorrectly computed the time and told him he could relaunch but, in fact, the working time was too short to beat his the flight he was then flying.

[Richard S]

When we used to fly the "increasing time" task, at about 6:30 into the slot I would begin to discuss and calculate how to divide up the final two flights. ideally aiming to turn around on 7:00 minutes and have a penultimate flight of approx 1:20 flight and then fly out the slot.

I think the pilot needs to be clear in their mind how to approch the end of the slot and not just rely on the timer.

I got killed at poker the other week. we had a watch on another pilot who although they nominated only 1:10 on their first flight... decided to fly for nearly 2 minutes to trick me to nominate a big time, I took the bait and could not achieve my next target dropping 400 points.

It is this sort of thinking game that I enjoy... sometimes the penalties are high

I still agree that poker is not suitable for FAI competition as it is too hard to police.

[GaryO]

I agree with Tom.

But if the issue is trying to get more separation, then get rid of the throw out rounds, don't fiddle with the tasks when all someone has to do is use the throw outs to cover their problems.

Gary

[tom43004]

Originally Posted by GaryO

But if the issue is trying to get more separation, then get rid of the throw out rounds, don't fiddle with the tasks when all someone has to do is use the throw outs to cover their problems.

Gary

Amen! If you throw away bad rounds, you can win a contest by flying really well some of the time.

Winners fly well ALL of the time.

[Oystmyr]

I like this kind of discussions on the forum because normally there are some technical meetings in combination with championships and other big events but F3K is not there yet.
A good initiative from Denmark to update the tasklist even if I don't find the tasks right but the discussions has started.

It's challanging with rules and tasks that should stand up for a world championship level and at the same time be possible to use for smaller local events.
I like to keep the 10 minute window in all tasks to keep it simple for both pilots and officials.
I like the mix of tactics and turn around tasks today.
I like the limited number of tasks available for bigger contest.
So why change?
Whats proposed now should be decided upon in 2010 and initiated to WC in 2013. Thats three years from now and most probably the skill and technical development has continued to grow why we might need to update some of the tasks.
Longer flight times will be more challenging.
4x2,5min?
Last flight 6min
Last and next to last max 5min
One launch max 5min

Another thing that will differentiate the scores more is to only use the throw out round up to 5 rounds. You brake an airplane or you have some missfortune once but not 3-4 times in a weekend.

Summarized I like an update but I'm not in favour for the proposed tasks.

Regards/Mattias Hammarskiöld

[GaryO]

Mattias (Quote)

"Another thing that will differentiate the scores more is to only use the throw out round up to 5 rounds. You brake an airplane or you have some missfortune once but not 3-4 times in a weekend."

I can't imagine a Formula I race where a team would whine about breaking a car or having a "misfortune", can you?

I'd think that, in general, when a pilot is an innocent victim of someone else, it would be appropriate to allow the pilot to refly in a later round. A situation that I can visualize that would require a "refly", not a throwout, would be if a plane is thrown through a glider on launch. In that situation allowing a refly would be more appropriate than a throwout, IMHO.

Gary