Discussion Proposal of additional tasks for F3K, from Denmark

[erikdahlchriste]

Denmark is proposing a number of new tasks for F3K together with a deletion associated to the proposal of “4 x 2½ minutes”, for the CIAM meeting next spring (2010).
About sepperating the proposals: They are made as sepperate proposals, but I have joined them here to save space. Each highlitened sentence is a single sepperate proposal (this clarification has been inserted in the top).

General reason for the proposal of new tasks
More and more contest have numerous rounds, and more tasks would make it easier to choose task to harden the competition, and separate the top pilots.
More tasks will increase the demand for an even wider tactical horizon

General reason for varying working times
The working time doesn’t always have to be 10 minutes. A longer working time gives the possibility for more thermal cycles to pass through in one groups working time, together with the associated sink.
Varying working times are not new to F3K (se 5.7.11.1 task A (last flight) – working time min 7 minutes, max 10 minutes).

New task 4 x 2½
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best four flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 150 seconds.
Working time is 10 minutes.

(If this new task is chosen, it would be natural to delete task G (5.7.11.7)
Reasons
The task G (5.7.11.7) has changed to a turnaround task for the good pilots, instead of the original duration task. Therefore an increased max time will push the demand more in the direction of air reading, instead of precise timing.
Data
This task has been flown two years ago in “Swinging Denmark F3K”. Se this link for Martin Kopplows comments on the task:
http://www.modelflyvning.dk/media/92...wochenende.doc
It was also flown in 2009 as round zero.

Delete task G
In case the proposal of a new task (4 times 2½ minutes) is not voted for, please disregard this proposal

New task - 4 x 3 minutes
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best four flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 180 seconds.
Working time is 12 minutes.

New task - 3 x 3 minutes
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best three flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 180 seconds.
Working time is 9 minutes.

New task - 5 x 3 minutes
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best five flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 180 seconds.
Working time is 15 minutes.

New task - 3 x 4 minutes
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best three flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 240 seconds.
Working time is 12 minutes.

New task - 3 x 5 minutes
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights. Only the best three flights will be added together. The maximum accounted single flight is 300 seconds.
Working time is 15 minutes.

New task - three last flights count
Each competitor has an unlimited number of flights, but only the three last flights will be scored.
Maximum time per flight is 180 seconds for 10 minutes working time.
Example: 1st flight 150 s
2nd flight 45 s
3rd flight 180 s
4th flight 150 s
Total score: 45 s + 180 s + 150 s = 375 s

Also posted here:
http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showthread.php?t=172304

Erik Dahl Christensen
Denmark

[got2soar]

I like the new task recommendations. I don't see the need to eliminate the 5x2 task just because it is a "turnaround task for the good pilots". Being able to catch and relaunch your airplane quickly will always be part of this game. All tasks that have flight time equal to working time can be said to be a turnaround task.

Bruce

[erikdahlchriste]

Hi Bruce,

I'm just stating that it could be natural for the comitee to delete the task G if they see the need for it.
Our concern is that there has been situations where precise or unprecise timing has been fatal and decisive (= other pilots timers generous timing).

And I'm stating that they shouldn't delete task G, it if nothing is choosen, that can substitute it

Your do have a point in your last sentence.

cheers

[MikeHLG]

I know that official timing can be a problem with 'turnaround tasks', but for me quick relaunch aspect of DLG is a large part what I enjoy about DLG in comparison to other soaring disciplines. Don't we all strive to be good pilots? In DLG part of being a good pilot is the fast turnaround.

I used to love the 8x1min task and certainly do not want to lose the 5x2min. For that reason I would not support the 4x2.5min task.

I have no major objections to the other proposals. I do think we need a larger selection of tasks for contests. But a possible issue with having 12 and 15min slots is that it lowers the total number of rounds you can fit in to a day. 10min seems to give a good balance between flying and not. Of course if you have a repair to do, 15min could be useful! I realise not all the tasks you are proposing are 12-15mins, but still worth mentioning. If you have 3 slots per round, two 15min rounds will add 1/2 an hour to your day, or take up just about one round of a 10min task, for example

Mike

[jcats]

15 minutes? That's too long. 12 mins is fine.
Keep the total time/fast turnaround tasks if you want more point separation. There's too many 'standing around' tasks in f3k.

Get rid of the 'last 2 flights' task. Lol.

Jun

[Wave Glider]

Originally Posted by jcats

Get rid of the 'last 2 flights' task. Lol.

Jun

Agreed!!!

[Richard S]

i love last 2 flights... lots of tactics on days with poor weather and lots of flying when there is a good day.

[Reto67]

Don't like tasks where sum of max time is equal to working time! Don't like to hurry without checking model and launch corridor, safety first!

[Fly2High]

that's what your timer is suppose to do.

I like challenging tasks, eventhough I am not of the caliber to do them well. Full time is great. It forces you to use your prior flight to find air for the next. That's what helps separate the men from the boys.

I like the new tasks and since they do not have thresholds, I am sure they could be welcome by many of the experts.

I agree that longer window times might reduce the number of tasks given in a contest but if the level of skill requires harder tasks then these might help.

Setup separate proposals for each and submit them. I'll be looking at FAI for their inclusion!!

Frank

[erikdahlchriste]

About sepperating the proposals: They are made as sepperate proposals, but I have joined them here to save space. Each highlitened sentence is a single sepperate proposal (this clarification has been inserted in the top).

[MGerstgrasser]

Hi,

replacing 5*2 by 4*2.5: ok.
Adding more fast turnaround tasks: No thanks. I've seen to many of these with more than questionable numbers on the score cards.

Do you guys really think last/prelast is easier than 1,2,3,4? Really?

If the conditions are so that the times can be flown, than the minimizing ground time tasks essentially become "whos timing faster" tasks. As long as all the issues with official/unofficial timing, faster/slower clocks, rounding vs. truncation, friends timing for friends etc are not resolved, these tasks just suck.

Allmost everybody on the circus can catch/relaunch within 1.5-2 seconds or so nowadays. What's the point?

If you think, the tasks do not seperate enough: Either increase target times or introduce tasks that force people to think before they actually launch. Last/Prelast is a prime example of such a task (and poker too, by the way).

Regards,
Matthias

[jrerickson]

Some of us fly in areas where there is a flight height limit. The tasks that require 5 minutes would become very difficult given the altitude restrictions. We already have to watch it with the 4 minute tasks.

5 x 2 minutes in a 10 minute window used to be the most difficult task when everyone threw overhand. I can see 5 x 3 becoming the evolved task give the increased launch height. That still will be very difficult as the air changes so much over a 15 minute period.

John

[Thermaln2]

Originally Posted by Richard S

... lots of tactics on days with poor weather and lots of flying when there is a good day.

I think that Richard has really nailed the real issue, or perhaps desire.

What do the 4x3 or 5x3 tasks in 15 minutes really do? Looking at the comments made so far, the tasks appear to not be addressing tactics, but rather endurance. WRT Erickson, I understand the height restrictions we have in the States and different locales, but if you are just increasing the number of counted flights for just summing airtime, then in 15 minutes the entire cycle of air can change dramatically.

Going back to some of the older IHLGF formats, there were considerably more tactics involved. Pilots had to choose when and if they were going to fly again. Many of the tassk were precursors to the Last flight and next to last flight options. It got down to decisions by the pilot about the air, not just the air time cycle. In the 5x2, if you did not make all of them, but still have 2 minutes left, then you could tactically throw again, loosing 10 points for throwing, in the hopes off bettering any flight shorter than 2 min 50 seconds. Pilots had to make decisions. Sometimes throwing late in a 5x2 was advantageous.

Other options done were to have all planes on the ground at the buzzer. This was quite simple, as it shorted every round by 1 minute x # of flight groups, while at the same time changed how pilots played out their time and downwind flights to get back. Tactics, think Tactics.

Are you trying to bring out pilot skill, pilot physical conditioning, or something else? If everyone was as physically conditioned (read throws high) then you are looking at tactics only amongst them. If not, then apilot who could tactically fly his plane could complete quite well against someone who throws well but does not identify lift and fly well.

Until it is decided, IMHO, longer times, or groups of times, really do not differentiate pilots very well.

[G_T]

It seems that these tasks are basically variations on a theme. I predict that if they are adopted there is going to be greater confusion on the part of the pilots and timers as to what task in what window is being flown. This added to the difficulty of organizers with more rounds to support. Furthermore having windows that exceed 10 minutes is going to result in fewer rounds being flown, acting to reduce separation amongst the better pilots.

We flew what you are calling the 3 last flights count at Polecat this year in the finals. Actually it was 3x3, 3 launches, 10 minute window. Such rounds can easily degenerate into AULD as everyone chooses to cover everyone else.

3x3/9 eliminates some of the strategy in the 3x3/10 so I do not recommend that round. I don't see that it has an advantage over AULD. It is AULD made easier in that one has a current air read when relaunching.

One needs to have a balance of tasks. Some need to be in the reach of relative beginners, while others need to challange experts. If the ratio of tasks shifts farther towards the latter that will tend to discourage beginners. Who likes to be standing on the field holding plane and transmitter watching a few experts fly?

Another balance is that some tasks should require strategy and others should require performance. Examples of these in the current task listing is last two flights and 5x2. Each has its purpose.

I AM in favor of eliminating or reducing threshold or luck tasks.

So I guess I'm not in favor of this set of proposals.

Gerald

[bamatex]

Erik,

I would 'vote' for the following;

keep the 5 x 2 minutes task

add the 4 x 2.5 minutes task

add the 5 x 3 minutes task as a 'fly-off' task

all other proposed tasks are indeed a slight variation and I see some
practical problems with the variable working time

Good initiative though to get some additional tasks

Cheers

Bart