Idea Al's Cyclogyro The 'Baco-Liner' Mk II.(B series)

[imsofaman]

Oh crap.....what am I thinking???? The wing IS above the tail feathers. Sorry.....I will lay back down now! So embarrassing!

Dave

[Boneswamped]

Originally Posted by imsofaman

Also....you may benefit with your tail feather ABOVE the turbulence of the rolling wing. Like a Mud Duck tail. Otherwise.....you may not have much control..........

Theoretically Dave; the turbulance shouldn't be more than a standard fixed wing. The flow over rotating vs. fixed wing is very similar believe it or not.

[bacogomez]

Al
Really I´m VERY surprised whit this proyect, specially with your selection about the name of this aircraft.

Using my nick is really a BIG HONOUR for me, believe me. THANKS for this.

Let me said that your Baco Liner needs round plates at the end of rotors as Rotoplane has, it made rotors more efficient. Also cones at the center of rotor helps to avoid vibrations. Rotors must be at 90º each from the other to minimize vibrations. BUT vibrations are the worst of Fletners, specially for flats.

This was the reason I consider Aydlett rotors wich demostrated two facts, one they vibrate less as spected , and they need lots of power to fly .
Never build it, but may be interesting to made (how ?) a rotor which has a 90º washouth on each wing half to keep vibrations low. Time ago I consider to build one of this over a pipe ducting....May be it works

About CG, it needs to be a little nose heavy, and put the elevator with negative incidence...Why ?
It´s not wing incidence in this kind of planes, so when you add power the fuse tend is to put the nose UP, cause the fuse balance only in a point !
To keep nose leveled a big elevator with negative incidence helps to keep nose at level.
This video shows the Rotoplane flying without elevator (I doesn´t needs it at all) and you can see how it balances when power is add or reduced specially at the moment of turning.

rotoplano (0 min 30 sec)

[MarioIArguello]

I was going through some of my autogyro archives and found some interesting information about the rotowing models done by Roy Clough Jr. None seem to have dampened wing retention or suspension, but they do seem to have some dihedral.

Mike I was simply suggesting a bit of suspension on the wing to minimize vibrations and detach the wing from the body so to dampen the rotatory wing, after all there are moving rotors on the wing and this will create vibrations.

If no one else will try my suggestions, I will, at some point, just that these models are not that attractive, and inefficient, the wings have lot of drag, so must have more to get inspired... but I have some ideas on how to improve on them.

Here is another video also based on Roy's original rotowing designs, perhaps it was based on Flettner's, have not done too much research on these types of wings so excuse me if my links are out of sequence...

I have to look through my old RC magazines to find the full article on an RC rotowing model. I think it was RC Modeler sometime in the 80's. If anyone remembers the publication date magazine, please post it, would appreciate it.

Check out also this thread.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=901647

TumbleWing first flight (2 min 23 sec)

[Boneswamped]

Originally Posted by MarioIArguello

Mike I was simply suggesting a bit of suspension on the wing to minimize vibrations and detach the wing from the body so to dampen the rotatory wing, after all there are moving rotors on the wing and this will create vibrations.

I think I see what you were trying to say now Mario. I just wanted to point out that flapping hinges would be useless in this application.

If we are only talking about removing vibration from the system then balancing is the best way. It is not possible to remove all the vibration produced aerodynamically, but the forces should be minimal. Cones at the end of the rotors would allow the tip vortices to dissipate more efficiently as well, and that would also reduce vibration.

I would encourage you to try it your way if you didn't find these type aircraft so un-appealing and inefficient.

I will be trying it my way if I can get hold of the plans(Al is such a great guy! ), because I find the aircraft to be interesting. I like it BECAUSE it is different, and ugly, and inefficient. I don't look at every build and wonder how to sell it to the masses or make it simple for the lowest common denominator to fly; I just build them for fun and for me. When an aircraft is difficult to fly that's part of the fun, and improving it is for me, not to try and make a buck.
Regards,
-Mike

[MarioIArguello]

Originally Posted by Boneswamped

I think I see what you were trying to say now Mario. I just wanted to point out that flapping hinges would be useless in this application.

If we are only talking about removing vibration from the system then balancing is the best way. It is not possible to remove all the vibration produced aerodynamically, but the forces should be minimal. Cones at the end of the rotors would allow the tip vortices to dissipate more efficiently as well, and that would also reduce vibration.

I would encourage you to try it your way if you didn't find these type aircraft so un-appealing and inefficient.

I will be trying it my way if I can get hold of the plans(Al is such a great guy! ), because I find the aircraft to be interesting. I like it BECAUSE it is different, and ugly, and inefficient. I don't look at every build and wonder how to sell it to the masses or make it simple for the lowest common denominator to fly; I just build them for fun and for me. When an aircraft is difficult to fly that's part of the fun, and improving it is for me, not to try and make a buck.
Regards,
-Mike

Mike,

I was not trying to be condecending in my use of descriptive words towards these types of models. But it would be interesting to try one such for fun and try a few experiments that perhaps have not been tried on previous designs.

If you look at the link I posted in my previous post there is a plan there in PDF form for one. A Flettner type wing Control line model by Roy Clough Jr, The Tumble Wing, which can easily be converted to RC.

I will look through my RC magazine collection and see if I can also find the article on another similar RC model, as I recalled used a rotating wing.

Now you may have just boosted my inspiration on these rather uglly duckly but interesting models... Al, I hope you get it flying, cudos for the first attempt.

[bacogomez]

Al
Yesterday I can´t see your maiden flight video due to some restrictions at office. Today at home can take a look....and remember my second Rotoplane! destruction
There are some stability quite different in this kind of planes and I did a quick video to explain this

Baco Liner 0002 (2 min 10 sec)

Also my experience with Rotoplanes show me the don´t support more speed than just the needed for sustained flight. You need to use a low pitch propeller to avoid excesive speed.
Really too much speed is never attained, just vibrations or a loop as in your maiden.
Good luck with this proyect, and keep us updated.

Daniel

[imsofaman]

I liked that video and much of that made sense. Very nice presentation by the way.

Well what about some down thrust on the motor?

And maybe some throttle to elevator mixing? Advance the throttle and pushes the elevator down. You can adjust the amount the elevator moves.

There is a gyeo with a fan wing and that thing has ailerones....how the heck do you know where to put them???


Next questions is: Are the caps in the ends of the fanwings act as a stablizor?

Seems that there should be a radius hump and or half of a cycinder glued in the middle of the fan wing? Just going by the cyclinder lift theory.

I really like this stuff.

Dave

[bacogomez]

Well what about some down thrust on the motor?

Yeah ...It may help in theory, but mine flew with 0º

And maybe some throttle to elevator mixing? Advance the throttle and pushes the elevator down. You can adjust the amount the elevator moves.

Yes, Rotoplane has a fixed elevator, only engine and rudder control. I mixed throttle with elevator just for my instincts....when I need to push the elevator...just lower the engine throttle.

There is a gyeo with a fan wing and that thing has ailerones....how the heck do you know where to put them???

No personal experience with this.

Next questions is: Are the caps in the ends of the fanwings act as a stablizor?

Yes, at least in theory..I suppose they act as a kind of winglets...Never tried to fly without them.

Seems that there should be a radius hump and or half of a cycinder glued in the middle of the fan wing? Just going by the cyclinder lift theory

. They are light paper cones. Roy L Clough tells about this they use is to avoid some irregularities in rotor turning due to the prop turbulence.

Hope this helps

[imsofaman]

Hmmmmm.....this looks fun. Too many projects for me at this time....but I want to play with this a bit.

Question: Anyone have a drawing and or photo of turbulence coming off the rear of the fan wing? Maybe elevated ailerons would be an option? Just thinking outloud.

Dave

[imsofaman]

How about some of these photos? Is the fan unit powered by the gas engine???? No propeller. Or am I seeing things???





Dave

[imsofaman]

Here is a video of the electric version. I know it is not wind driven....but neat none the less.

The site from all this stuff is: http://www.fanwing.com/uav.htm

FanWing Demonstration Flight at ParcAberporth International UAV/S Event June 2008 (5 min 26 sec)

[Hephaistos]

Hello...........

I just found this on YOUtube:

magnus aircraft 3 with Flamenco (1 min 49 sec)

Its a pusher, and the thrust-line is on the level of the rotors. The wings have some dihedral. The builder writes on the comments that he has build models with powered wings, too. Intersting concept..............

Bye
Mike

[rotorheid]

Hi Guys

Many thanks for the interest and information, Baco, you are very welcome to have your name in the project, I will take your advise on my return to Saudi Arabia, in 10 days.
The Wedding went ahead as planned and was a truely happy event enjoyed by all.
Pictures of the day will be posted later,
I'm off to enjoy the rest of my home time so no more posting from me untill mid november, Cheers,

Regards to all, Al

[rotorheid]

Hi Guys,

Here's a couple of happy snaps from the wedding day.
Cheers,

Regards to all,
Al,