Help needed for Reflex XTR - Page 2

snapperjon · Nov 02, 2009, 06:01 AM

Full text of letter from Reflex:

1. Please check your product about the minimum requirement mentioned on the
packaging. If you feel a difference to what it says and what you are claiming,
please feel free to revise your mail and ask in a different manner.
2. Sorry to say that my crystal ball back in 2003 didn't tell me sufficiently
about Bill Gates intention to change the installation routine in a product
brought to the market some years later. Please rise a claim with the crystal
ball manufacturer.
3. In fact, your product WOULD work nicely under Vista if you would be a little
more clever in circumventing the Vista installation instructions.
4. So even IF my crystal ball would have worked nicely and IF you would know a
little better on how to circumvent Vista, I still don't see any obligation to
work on your claim as I can't see a contract between you and me, providing a
solution for all the future fancy products coming from Microsoft. You may as
well claim functionality for Android, why not? In fact, I can't even see a
purchase from you, so you may as well have one of these chinese copies in the
market.
5. I'm a little irritated why you are claiming " the goods not being of
merchandisable quality nor fit for the purpose for which they were intended." As
far as I can remember, the product was described to work with Windows XP, 98, ME
and SE. You are telling me that it doens't work under these operating systems?
That will be very hard to prove as I may have about 150.000 customers in abt. 82
countries telling different stories. But still, you are free to raise whatever
claim you may wish to present.
5.b. I am not responsible for your change in operating system. I did not cash
any fees for your change and I didn't sell your Vista package. Just in case
there is a open issue here to come up to a later date.
6. I'm not offering the Reflex XTR anymore.
7. If a third party company is asking LST 50 for an upgrade, why don't you raise
the claim with them? As far as I can see, I didn't ask you for LST 50. So you
are blaiming me for LST 50 asked by another company? Just in case the question
arised to a later date, I am NOT responsible for the repair bill of your car
dealer even if I live in the EU and may use the same fuel you are using.
8. Just a side remark, it would have been nice to know the version you are
having which brings us back to no. 1.

Best regards
Reflex Products
Wolfgang S. Nitschmann
Offenauer Weg 19
25335 Bokholt-Hanredder
Germany
Tel.: +49 (0)4121 700800
wsnitschmann@reflex-sim.de

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: jon ryan [mailto:jonpryan@aol.co.uk]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Oktober 2009 11:21
An: Nitschmann Wolfgang
Betreff: Enquiry from WSN Aero

BurkhardE · Nov 02, 2009, 09:52 AM

ROFLMAO!

Wolfgang is just beyond comparison, I'm missing his posts here. And it's all so true and spot on! Seems he's right that you are not really clever, otherwise you'd understand his points. Or you're so blinded by rage that you can't.

Anyway, you've made my day so I may well point it out my way:

Understand his point #6 - use the link in my post #15 to download version 5.03 for Vista. But check his point #8 before! Install, should run fine.

Post #11 was related to his point #3. But if you just upgraded to Vista then all Reflex files should be still there and you could simply move them to the new place - if you'd know how. Else get help from a PC/Windows expert.

Be grateful to all those who provided help even in advance, like SimWerk, the fellows on RC-Sim or here on RCG, ...

Don't post your original letter to Reflex! From Wolfgang's references to your complaints I can imagine the rest, and I'm afraid I'd die laughing...

snapperjon · Nov 02, 2009, 10:33 AM

I'm mildly curious about your interest in this, BurkhadE. I may not be that clever - just a thick journalist - but I do know that insulting people who give you money is not very nice. I also know some law (required for journalists) and there is an obligation to provide goods of `merchandisable quality` and `fit for purpose.` This includes telling customers that the company will refuse to offer upgrades should they become necessary. All reputable companies offer such a service. Most -such as camera manufactures - will offer free firmwear upgrades as they come to market.

You see this as a joke. I see it as outstandingly poor PR.

Time will tell how the editors of the 18 magazines to whom I've copied the letter (so far) will react.

BurkhardE · Nov 02, 2009, 11:31 AM

Well, they'll have a good chuckle, I guess.

Just looked up "thick" in a dictionary - right. Asked again explicitely: What's your interest? Obviously only giving advice - avoiding Reflex. If you'd just want to have Reflex running again, all possible advice was given here - but you didn't response. Though I could, I'm not touchy enough to see that as an insult, just ignorance.

By the way, my interest is having fun. Keep us informed!

Malc C · Nov 02, 2009, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by snapperjon

Time will tell how the editors of the 18 magazines to whom I've copied the letter (so far) will react.

Probably in the same way as Burkhard and the rest of here.. have a laugh and file it in the bin !

The thing is that whilst his reply was somewhat sarcastic, it is indeed correct. Wolfgang effectively sold the model flight simulator a few years back and has no connection with the current company offering it for sale, and he can't be held responsible for how operating systems develop. He has hinted that by circumventing Vista's installation security, XTR will install and run OK, so has indeed offered some assistance, and whilst he could of stretched that assistance to tell you how, he has no obligation to do so.

Best advice, google how to get round Vista's installation routines and leave it at that... If that fails, and you don't have the option to install on an XP machine and copy the files across, then you either have to bite the bullet and get another PC or change your simulator.

One final thought, you could always run a Virtual XP machine on your Vista PC and try installing it on that...... may not be perfect, but might be a work-around if all else fails

BurkhardE · Nov 02, 2009, 01:12 PM

Malcolm, trying not to be sarcastic, I'd just like to ask if you are aware of SimWerk, the new Reflex distributor. As the successor in interest of WSN's Reflex Products, they even offer the help called for by snappy Jon. For those swamped with a "manual" installation in Vista, they offer special automatic installation packages for both former dongle versions, that is Reflex versions up to 5.0.3 (old dongle), and 5.04 (newer dongle and iVol). These are the claimed free updates useful in case of Windows upgrade.

Malc C · Nov 02, 2009, 04:55 PM

I was aware of them, but not the services they offer. To be honest, I've not used XTR for some years, so haven't had much course to follow developments since Wolfgang sold up.

Gino CP · Nov 09, 2009, 04:45 AM

While I agree that the Reflex letter is rude, I am pretty sure it was an emotional response to a strong letter. Post your original email so we can put his reply into context. Still, in my book, a reputable company's reply should always be civil no matter what the customer has said. The email is disappointing to say the least. It is a poor Reflex-ion on management. It gives you a sense that you are dealing with a small shop.

snapperjon · Nov 09, 2009, 10:18 AM

Thanks Gino, but it's sorted. Reflex, grudgingly and with ill grace, have now supplied me with a version that works on Vista. Shame they didn't just do this to start with. I had to quote consumer law at them and use the Journalist's Last Resort - public ridicule - before they started acting something like a professional company. Your point about civil replies is astute. (And my initial letter to them was a perfectly normal enquiry, not at all `strong`. They are free to post it here or anywhere else. But I doubt if they will.)

Lessons learned all `round, I guess.

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Nov 02, 2009, 06:01 AM	#16
snapperjon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8	Full text of letter from Reflex: 1. Please check your product about the minimum requirement mentioned on the packaging. If you feel a difference to what it says and what you are claiming, please feel free to revise your mail and ask in a different manner. 2. Sorry to say that my crystal ball back in 2003 didn't tell me sufficiently about Bill Gates intention to change the installation routine in a product brought to the market some years later. Please rise a claim with the crystal ball manufacturer. 3. In fact, your product WOULD work nicely under Vista if you would be a little more clever in circumventing the Vista installation instructions. 4. So even IF my crystal ball would have worked nicely and IF you would know a little better on how to circumvent Vista, I still don't see any obligation to work on your claim as I can't see a contract between you and me, providing a solution for all the future fancy products coming from Microsoft. You may as well claim functionality for Android, why not? In fact, I can't even see a purchase from you, so you may as well have one of these chinese copies in the market. 5. I'm a little irritated why you are claiming " the goods not being of merchandisable quality nor fit for the purpose for which they were intended." As far as I can remember, the product was described to work with Windows XP, 98, ME and SE. You are telling me that it doens't work under these operating systems? That will be very hard to prove as I may have about 150.000 customers in abt. 82 countries telling different stories. But still, you are free to raise whatever claim you may wish to present. 5.b. I am not responsible for your change in operating system. I did not cash any fees for your change and I didn't sell your Vista package. Just in case there is a open issue here to come up to a later date. 6. I'm not offering the Reflex XTR anymore. 7. If a third party company is asking LST 50 for an upgrade, why don't you raise the claim with them? As far as I can see, I didn't ask you for LST 50. So you are blaiming me for LST 50 asked by another company? Just in case the question arised to a later date, I am NOT responsible for the repair bill of your car dealer even if I live in the EU and may use the same fuel you are using. 8. Just a side remark, it would have been nice to know the version you are having which brings us back to no. 1. Best regards Reflex Products Wolfgang S. Nitschmann Offenauer Weg 19 25335 Bokholt-Hanredder Germany Tel.: +49 (0)4121 700800 wsnitschmann@reflex-sim.de -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: jon ryan [mailto:jonpryan@aol.co.uk] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Oktober 2009 11:21 An: Nitschmann Wolfgang Betreff: Enquiry from WSN Aero

Nov 02, 2009, 09:52 AM	#17
BurkhardE Reflex sim model builder Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Augsburg, Germany Posts: 413	ROFLMAO! Wolfgang is just beyond comparison, I'm missing his posts here. And it's all so true and spot on! Seems he's right that you are not really clever, otherwise you'd understand his points. Or you're so blinded by rage that you can't. Anyway, you've made my day so I may well point it out my way: Understand his point #6 - use the link in my post #15 to download version 5.03 for Vista. But check his point #8 before! Install, should run fine. Post #11 was related to his point #3. But if you just upgraded to Vista then all Reflex files should be still there and you could simply move them to the new place - if you'd know how. Else get help from a PC/Windows expert. Be grateful to all those who provided help even in advance, like SimWerk, the fellows on RC-Sim or here on RCG, ... Don't post your original letter to Reflex! From Wolfgang's references to your complaints I can imagine the rest, and I'm afraid I'd die laughing...

Nov 02, 2009, 10:33 AM	#18
snapperjon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8	I'm mildly curious about your interest in this, BurkhadE. I may not be that clever - just a thick journalist - but I do know that insulting people who give you money is not very nice. I also know some law (required for journalists) and there is an obligation to provide goods of `merchandisable quality` and `fit for purpose.` This includes telling customers that the company will refuse to offer upgrades should they become necessary. All reputable companies offer such a service. Most -such as camera manufactures - will offer free firmwear upgrades as they come to market. You see this as a joke. I see it as outstandingly poor PR. Time will tell how the editors of the 18 magazines to whom I've copied the letter (so far) will react.

Nov 02, 2009, 11:31 AM	#19
BurkhardE Reflex sim model builder Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Augsburg, Germany Posts: 413	Well, they'll have a good chuckle, I guess. Just looked up "thick" in a dictionary - right. Asked again explicitely: What's your interest? Obviously only giving advice - avoiding Reflex. If you'd just want to have Reflex running again, all possible advice was given here - but you didn't response. Though I could, I'm not touchy enough to see that as an insult, just ignorance. By the way, my interest is having fun. Keep us informed!

Nov 02, 2009, 01:12 PM	#21
BurkhardE Reflex sim model builder Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Augsburg, Germany Posts: 413	Malcolm, trying not to be sarcastic, I'd just like to ask if you are aware of SimWerk, the new Reflex distributor. As the successor in interest of WSN's Reflex Products, they even offer the help called for by snappy Jon. For those swamped with a "manual" installation in Vista, they offer special automatic installation packages for both former dongle versions, that is Reflex versions up to 5.0.3 (old dongle), and 5.04 (newer dongle and iVol). These are the claimed free updates useful in case of Windows upgrade.

Nov 02, 2009, 04:55 PM	#22
Malc C Registered User Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: UK Posts: 3,234	I was aware of them, but not the services they offer. To be honest, I've not used XTR for some years, so haven't had much course to follow developments since Wolfgang sold up.

Nov 09, 2009, 04:45 AM	#23
Gino CP Team Mulikow Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Manila, Philippines Posts: 9,273	While I agree that the Reflex letter is rude, I am pretty sure it was an emotional response to a strong letter. Post your original email so we can put his reply into context. Still, in my book, a reputable company's reply should always be civil no matter what the customer has said. The email is disappointing to say the least. It is a poor Reflex-ion on management. It gives you a sense that you are dealing with a small shop.

Nov 09, 2009, 10:18 AM	#24
snapperjon Registered User Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 8	Thanks Gino, but it's sorted. Reflex, grudgingly and with ill grace, have now supplied me with a version that works on Vista. Shame they didn't just do this to start with. I had to quote consumer law at them and use the Journalist's Last Resort - public ridicule - before they started acting something like a professional company. Your point about civil replies is astute. (And my initial letter to them was a perfectly normal enquiry, not at all `strong`. They are free to post it here or anywhere else. But I doubt if they will.) Lessons learned all `round, I guess.