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Old Apr 21, 2011, 10:07 AM
Just call me crash for short
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United States, OH, The Plains
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Originally Posted by goldguy View Post
You whittle out a plug from wood, stick it into a pop bottle and then hit it with a heat gun. It's really that easy. It might take a few tries to get it right though. The only real work involved is carving the word. I've just used a scap of 2X4, as the shrinkage will collapse anything soft.
Yea, that was what I saw for the most part. The one I stumbled across the guy had used a wood dowel that kind of looked like a banister post or something and had split it and placed in a spacer between the two halves. The 2x4 is a good idea. I could rough cut with the chop saw and sand to shape.
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 10:31 AM
Onward through the fog.
Cybernaught's Avatar
Bohol Philippines
Joined Aug 2008
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I cut the ends off 2 liter pop bottles, use a split wood form with spacer and heat it over the stove top to make canopies. (Not canapes) I like the green and blue best. Clear for other parts such as skids or battery covers.

It works great.
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 11:47 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
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Originally Posted by goldguy View Post
Ever price out a high performace glider???? Your looking at thousands of dollars, no matter who's airfoil it's sporting. OK, so that's pre-built. So for $500, a load of specialty tools and 100 hours labour I can build one just like it. Hummmm????
try $200:

http://www.topsoaring.com/index_page0003.htm

or

http://www.kennedycomposites.com/elf.htm (I own one of these)

both are based on Drela airfoil or glider designs and both have very high performance.. Perhaps not quite the 'cutting edge' but high performance non the less.

Steve
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 11:50 AM
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[QUOTE=Quick61;18028000]davereap, That one is looking good. How much dihedral in the wings and what are the %'s of the steps? Cord?
.
.
I have stuck 3" under one tip only but 3+ might be better, time will tell..
The steps are a KFm9 as usual..35,50,75...so 4 layers with a tapered chord 6" at the root and 5" at the tips..
Because the chord is small ive used 4x 2mm sheets to keep the wing thin..and I stuck the 4mm box spar at 30% so the middle two layers have a 4mm slot removed and the spar gets covered with the top 35% layer as seen in my previous post pic1

Ive been into other stuff today, but perhaps tomorrow I can get it all done..

For a cheapskate foamie builder like myself ....for 200$ I can have a big box of foam sheets and enough CF and glue to make 30 - 50 of the usual models I knock out...and keep me happy for ages...my 1.7M powered glider was possbly my most expensive build lately, because it uses 3 carbon tubes for spars and boom..this made it cost about £15...But it flys a real treat and thermals well..

The elf is a goodn... I looked at that when I was working out some shapes and sizes for my small foamie DLG..would I buy one.. No , but then I wouldnt spend out on most types of model..I am happpy enough with my little bits of foam, which are great when you want to fly as cheap as possible
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 12:22 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by tolladay View Post
Yet for all that, I don't recall him designing a world record setting paper airplane.
That's probably because he's never tried. I wouldn't mind betting if he put his mind to it he could

Incidentally.. the world record duration for a paper airplane is held by a guy called Ken Blackburn and the distance record is held by Tony Fletch: http://www.origami-kids.com/0-11-ama...ane-facts-.htm

I know Richard Kline's paper airplane flew a long way out of doors but I'm not sure if it ever officially held any world record? (correct me if I'm wrong)

Steve
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 12:48 PM
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Here's the story from my perspective.

Back in 1986, Simon & Schuster, my publisher, asked me for a big idea to kick off my book The Ultimate Paper Airplane. My idea was to challenge the Wright Brothers distance record of 122 feet for the first manned flight with my paper airplane called The Condor. A crew from Good Morning America came along with me down to Kill Devil Hills, NC to film it. Some history books claim it was Kitty Hawk, but that was where they sent the telegram of their successful first flight. It still irks the people of Kill Devil Hills to this day.

I stood next to the rock where they took off from in 1903 and launched my planes into the teeth of a very strong wind coming in off Cape Hatteras. They shot up into the air, leveled off and then went with the wind. My longest flight was 401 feet, four inches.

According to this quote from Amazing Paper Airplane Facts, they are quoting the longest outdoor distance as 193 feet.

"World Record – Distance
The longest distance flown by a paper aircraft launched indoors, from the ground, is 193 feet (58.82m) This was achieved by Tony Fletch of Wisconsin, USA at the La Crosse Centre on May 21, 1985 and is a world record. The distance flown is almost equal to the length of a Jumbo Jet, and much further than the first flight by one of the Wright brothers."
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 01:01 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
JetPlaneFlyer's Avatar
Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
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Dick,

The record they quote is for indoor, not outdoor. 401 ft is a very long way but I guess establishing a meaningful record for outdoor distance is difficult/impossible because it depends totally on wind and thermals... I'd be surprised if there is an official outdoor distance record for precisely that reason.

As a matter of fact.. I once saw a large sheet of cardboard picked up right off a table by a big 'boomer' of a thermal. The sheet of cardboard ascended in the thermal until it was a dot in the sky and drifted downwind until it disappeared from view.. I'm guessing maybe half a mile or more away from it's 'take off' point.
That kinda illustrates how difficult it would be to have any meaningful outdoor distance record.

Steve
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
fix-it-up chappie
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Valley Village, CA
Joined Jan 2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
That's probably because he's never tried. I wouldn't mind betting if he put his mind to it he could

Incidentally.. the world record duration for a paper airplane is held by a guy called Ken Blackburn and the distance record is held by Tony Fletch: http://www.origami-kids.com/0-11-ama...ane-facts-.htm

I know Richard Kline's paper airplane flew a long way out of doors but I'm not sure if it ever officially held any world record? (correct me if I'm wrong)

Steve
I would never even begin to argue with you on these facts, and I do not know if Dick Kline once held any world records.

That being said, did you happen to notice Ken's airplane design? As it happens I have his World Record Paper Airplane calendars sitting on my desk. The mini world record airplane has a clear KF step on the bottom. Photos of his world record holding plane (found by an Google image search) indicate the plane shares the airfoil with the smaller calendar versions.

The English wiki page for Paper Plane also happens to show an illustration called "A contest-winning paper glider" that is a flying wing with a KF step.

A video for making this plane, shows the KF on the top.

I have no idea what a record holding paper airplane designed by Dr. Drela would look like, but I would love to see it.
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
Dick,

The record they quote is for indoor, not outdoor. 401 ft is a very long way but I guess establishing a meaningful record for outdoor distance is difficult/impossible because it depends totally on wind and thermals... I'd be surprised if there is an official outdoor distance record for precisely that reason.

As a matter of fact.. I once saw a large sheet of cardboard picked up right off a table by a big 'boomer' of a thermal. The sheet of cardboard ascended in the thermal until it was a dot in the sky and drifted downwind until it disappeared from view.. I'm guessing maybe half a mile or more away from it's 'take off' point.
That kinda illustrates how difficult it would be to have any meaningful outdoor distance record.

Steve
Steve... as I recall, the publicity people who set up this whole event were supposed to file for the record but I think they went out of business before they did anything. At the time, all I cared about was breaking the Wright Brothers distance record under very difficult weather conditions. I know that my paper airplane will stand up to any wind without collapsing as most paper airplane would. The reason is the extra folds I make which I then tightly tape together so it is extremely ridged. Another thing was the paper I used. It was a chrome coat paper which withstood moisture in the air that could warp it and screw up the flight. I took all these things into account when I went down there. I was just very happy that it all turned out well for me and I accomplished my goal. It was a wonderful experience. And, the best part was still to come. My involvement with the greatest group of people in the world. The RC Guys. They are the best. And, the brightest group of people who freely share their ideas with others and are extremely creative and supportive in every way. I feel very fortunate to know a number of them.

–Dick
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 02:20 PM
flyin' fool
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Vancouver Island, Canada
Joined Jul 2003
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Wow, even sporting a KF stepped hairdo. Cool!
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 02:54 PM
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Joined Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by goldguy View Post
Wow, even sporting a KF stepped hairdo. Cool!

Goldguy:

Ohhhhh... that stepped hairdo is long gone. Nothing but peach fuzz now. Aging will do that, you know. (You really cracked me up with that one. Almost fell off my chair.)

I do, however, have steps overhead on our ceiling fan... just not on my head.

– Dick
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 03:50 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Aberdeen
Joined Mar 2006
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Cool fan

Just in case anyone wanted to have a crack at the Guinness paper airplane distance record here are the rules:

Quote:
Rules

The record is for the distance of a flight of a paper aircraft flown indoors.

• The paper aircraft must be flown indoors, in a closed air environment, where the general public may view the event. Outdoor flights are not eligible for the record.

• Two independent adjudicators must be appointed. The adjudicators must be persons of good character who shall be responsible for the proper application of these guidelines within the spirit of fairplay and shall take and authenticate the measurements.

• Ten attempts at the record are allowed.

• The aircraft must be constructed from one sheet of paper only (using either a piece of A4 or 8 1/2” x 11” quarto sized paper). The weight of the paper must be no more than 100 gms. The paper can be cut, but any piece of paper cut off cannot be rejoined. The use of standard light-duty clear cellulose adhesive tape of width 25mm and total length 30mm is permitted on any one aircraft. The tape may be cut up into smaller pieces but shall be used to hold down folds only and shall not be layered, joined together, used as a weight, used for laminating a surface nor used as a control device such as a trim-tab or flap. Glue, paper clips or staples are not permitted.

• The aircraft must be launched by one person (the ‘thrower') throwing the aircraft unaided from behind a straight launch line marked on the floor (the ‘launch line'). A run up of 10 metres before the launch line is allowed but the use of ramps or similar devices is not permitted. The thrower's body (including feet and clothing) must not touch the launch line or any point beyond it during the launch and the adjudicator shall check that the thrower does not so touch the launch line or beyond during the launch. After completion of the launch, the thrower may move beyond the launch line. The launch line shall be 10 metres in length. The launch line shall be marked at the central point at which all throws shall be made. The launch line central point is the mark from which distance measurements shall be taken.

• The launch height is dependent on the height of the thrower. Reasonable footwear must be used. The aircraft must not be launched from a balcony or any other area higher than the main floor level. The floor on which the thrower stands during launch must be level with or lower than the point where it first lands. The aircraft must not dip below the launch line and rise again, for example by flying down into a pit or basement area and up again to the main floor level. When in flight the aircraft should not roll more than 4 times along its longitudinal axis.

• The flight distance shall be measured in a straight line. Distance shall be measured from the launch line to the point where the aircraft first touches the floor, unless guideline 8 below applies.

• If the aircraft hits any object such as a wire, lighting etc. during the flight, the distance will only be recorded at that point. Additionally, should any object, flying or fixed, benefit the aircraft in flight or be deemed to do so by a adjudicator, the adjudicators shall either (a) measure the distance to the point on the floor immediately below and before any effect occurred or (b) declare the attempt invalid.
Sadly there is no outdoor classification, no doubt for the reasons i alluded to earlier.
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Old Apr 21, 2011, 04:09 PM
Onward through the fog.
Cybernaught's Avatar
Bohol Philippines
Joined Aug 2008
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I remember reading of, I think it was, a Boyscout Troup that held a paper airplane contest. The rules were simple, one sheet of 8.5" x 11" typing paper some Scotch type tape and a few paperclips for balance. Make any design you want and the winner is the one with the greatest straight line distance from a given starting point.
The winning design was a tightly balled up wad of paper with paperclips bent up in the center all tightly compressed and taped and it was thrown like a rock. It easily out distanced all the other carefully crafted entries. Supposed to be true but it sounds like one of those "Urban Legends".

Anyway it sounds like a good example of not losing sight of your goal combined with the "KISS" principle.


Steve.
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Old Apr 22, 2011, 02:09 AM
Just call me crash for short
Quick61's Avatar
United States, OH, The Plains
Joined Jan 2011
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[QUOTE=davereap;18029115]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick61 View Post
davereap, That one is looking good. How much dihedral in the wings and what are the %'s of the steps? Cord?
.
.
I have stuck 3" under one tip only but 3+ might be better, time will tell..
The steps are a KFm9 as usual..35,50,75...so 4 layers with a tapered chord 6" at the root and 5" at the tips..
Because the chord is small ive used 4x 2mm sheets to keep the wing thin..and I stuck the 4mm box spar at 30% so the middle two layers have a 4mm slot removed and the spar gets covered with the top 35% layer as seen in my previous post pic1

Ive been into other stuff today, but perhaps tomorrow I can get it all done..

For a cheapskate foamie builder like myself ....for 200$ I can have a big box of foam sheets and enough CF and glue to make 30 - 50 of the usual models I knock out...and keep me happy for ages...my 1.M powered glider was possbly my most expensive build lately, because it uses 3 carbon tubes for spars and boom..this made it cost about £15...But it flys a real treat and thermals well..

The elf is a goodn... I looked at that when I was working out some shapes and sizes for my small foamie DLG..would I buy one.. No , but then I wouldnt spend out on most types of model..I am happpy enough with my little bits of foam, which are great when you want to fly as cheap as possible
Good thing I asked... For some reason I was thinking the first step was 38%, not that would be a big difference. The wings in the photos looked almost straight across, must be the angle. When you attached the tail, are both H & V stabs just glued and taped on? Did you use any blocking between the fins and boom?
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Old Apr 22, 2011, 03:38 AM
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Ashford. Kent. England
Joined Feb 2005
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35....38 wouldn't make any noticeable difference....not that I can tell when flying and I went to nearer 40 on one because I put the spar in too far back accidentaly...duh! ...
variations on steps are up to you.. its try it and see..its obvious the positions do affect the ultimate performance, but all my wings have worked well and I do vary step positions and heights ..
With the KFm9 the previous %ages work super for a non aileron wing...for an aileron wing I would not include the ailerons in the step calculations, but simply add the surfaces to the back of the wing..
Wing thickness..for gliders thin wings (target 7% of the chord) are by far the best
My KF wings have nearly all worked..except for an early one where I put a step almost on the hinge line for the ailerons..the wing went fine until you used the ailerons.. then C***....
Taper.. .as there is only half an inch front and back on the wing it hardly notices
Tail surfaces are first covered with tape then fixed with cool melt glue directly to the CF tube, then taped over with a couple of strips.. for extra security you can use reinforced tape first , then cover with the decor tape..Ive not managed to rip off any tail surfaces yet so I will carry on with that method..actually the dlg with its tail hanging below will test the strength of the fix better than the V tails I have been using

pop bottle molding...steves way does work well, and smaller bottles can also be used.. the hardest thing is carving the wood for the shape ..its worth a go if you want a plastic cover...
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