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Old Sep 24, 2009, 10:38 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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Build Log
Big 'Brisfit' by Peter Rake

Starting this thread is a bit premature as I'm not quite ready to start the build but since a nice box of bits arrived on the doorstep this morning from New Mexico, I thought I'd share it with someone

Peter had already produced a small Bristol Fighter (Bristol F2b - 'Brisfit') some years ago and he even built it himself :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=423742

I remember asking Peter if he'd contemplate designing a bigger version but he was flat out on other projects at the time. Then Looooeeee started on an upsized Rake design but I'm not sure if that got started :
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=336963

A few months ago, it was mentioned in passing that a big Brisfit was on the board and I was immediately interested and after some pestering, got to having a box of bits on my bench

Here is the kit contents from Manzano - about two dozen sheets of balsa, liteply, heavy ply and basswood. I've yet to verify the bits but that will be a pleasurable task one evening!

Model details soon.

Pat
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 10:45 PM
Oh no, not again!
jhspring's Avatar
United States, LA, Carencro
Joined Dec 2005
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Love the Brisfit, can't wait to see what over-the-top details you manage to cram into this one, Pat. Working Lewis gun maybe?

Cheers, Jeff
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 12:04 AM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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About the Brisfit....

Jeff - this model is big enough to incorporate whatever detail is desired - and the Brisfit has heaps of it! I've not yet decided how I'll approach it but Peter suggested it would be a good 'trainer' before I got the SPAD flying

The original F2b first saw service in 1917 but was not really a successful combat plane until the following year after which it was considered one the most effective fighter aircraft of the Great War. It was good enough to continue on with the RAF until about 1930 and was still in other forces at the outbreak of WW2!
At about 39' span, it was not a small aircraft and Peter's design of 1:7 scale produces a model of 67" span and around 44" length. This is great as I believe it may JUST fit into my wagon assembled!

After several months of studying everything Brisfit, I narrowed my choice of prototypes down to a couple - both post WWI and neither painted green! A replica flying with one of New Zealands big collection of old aircraft, and an RAF unit that served in India in the mid-1920s. Both are finished in between-the-wars silver dope and grey metalwork. The Indian unit was fitted with every concievable attachment incuding tropical radiator, spare wheel, Handley-Page slots, flares, message hooks, landing lights, HF antenna, wind generators etc etc......... just my cup of tea

Fortunately the F2b is extremely well documented with three Datafiles and several other monographs plus masses of pictures and plans from the 'net. I also have a good collection of old AirEnthusiast and Areoplane magazines with good articles on the aircraft.

I'm looking forward to starting the build - sometime soon

Pat
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 01:09 AM
What's 3D?
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Australia, WA, Ellenbrook
Joined Feb 2008
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Very nice, looking forward to following this one!
hope the weather is coming good out your way!

Craig
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 07:37 AM
Oh no, not again!
jhspring's Avatar
United States, LA, Carencro
Joined Dec 2005
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Whichever plane you build will be a work of art, Pat. I'd have to go with this one, of course, being a Canuck myself.

" The exploits of the partnership of McKeever and Powell in their 11 Squadron Bristol F.2B made them perhaps the most celebrated of all the Bristol Fighter crews, McKeever himself becoming the highest scoring exponent of this classic type with a closing tally of 31 victories. Powell was to secure a further 19 kills before both were withdrawn from front line service to Home Establishment in January 1918. Whilst on a lone patrol above enemy lines in November 1917, their aircraft (A7288) was attacked by two German two-seaters and seven Albatross scouts, four of which were sent to the ground through a combination of superb airmanship and outstanding gunnery. The remaining German aircraft continued to give chase until the F.2B was down to less than 20ft above the British trenches, at which point the Germans broke off their attack and fled."

I'll be quiet now and let you get back to your thread.

Regards, Jeff
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 12:56 PM
Beware the Axis of Weasel.
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Plymouth, Devon
Joined May 2007
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Nice project, have you seen the one that was painted up to look like a fish with a pike's mouth at the front? I've got a B&W photo in a book I can scan in and post for you if you'd like.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 02:56 PM
I eat glue
Canada, NS, Yarmouth
Joined Jul 2006
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Jeff, you are oh so right! Any self respecting Canuck has to do that scheme, that's what I'm gonna do when it's released to us mere mortals.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 05:20 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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No guys - I wont be swayed But there are some unusual schemes out there for those wanting something unique - from fish scale and shark mouths, checks and stripes, various all-over colours plus the bog-standard PC-10 with various white stripes. Unfortunately, that was the style that most of the aces flew. After the war, there were all the training squadrons, squadron 'hacks' and then the more-or-less standard silver dope with coloured ID stripes. I like the silver finish (I've several rolls of silver covering plus some silver Solartex for details and rib-tapes) so I'll leave the exotic, erotic schemes for you guys later Also, the Brisfit served with many forces following the Great War and no doubt had many other odd schemes applied.

The model is similar in fuselage size to Pete's 54" SPAD and SE5 but with an extra foot or so of wing. I'd imagine the weight would be in the range of 6lb. The total wing area is around 8.3 sq ft which would mean a loading of around 11 oz/sq ft. At 5lb AUW, loading is 10 oz/ft while 7lb AUW gives 13 or so. So I'll aim for 6 lb and Pete has specified an AXI 4120 size motor which on one of my 4S 5000 LIPOs will mean a low kv motor with a fairly cool wind otherwise we'd have a rocket rather than a lumbering WW1 fighter

Scale prop size is around 17" - that will also affect the motor choice as a 12X6 would look ridiculous! I may need to talk to Vinto about a laminated version. My prototypes used the two blade rather than 4.

The model is fairly standard Peter Rake style, but with a bit of extra complication or 'beef' where deemed necessary because of size. Especially around the lower wing fixing which is of course, attached to the fuselage with struts and the UC passes through gaps in the CS.

Much to be discussed - later

Pat
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 07:36 PM
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Pat,
Knowing the way you build, it'll probably come in at nearer 4.5 lb.

Although Pat hasn't mentioned it, there's one area in which this model differs from anything I've done before. Just for a change I have inner and outer fuselage sides, with the inner ones lightened and slotted for tongues on the formers. I was quite pleased with myself about that, now we just need to wait to see if I got it all right.

Pete
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 07:42 PM
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Peter! Egad, you're falling over completely to the tab and slot crowd. First the shell fuses with their tabbed former positions. Now you tab the fuse sides too?!?!

Next thing you'll be slotting the tail feather parts for the rib locations

Pat, wait till you fly that SE5A and you'll see how much weight you can get away with on this one. The SPAD still surprises me at how slow it will fly, and it weighs 5lb.

charlie

PS Yep, bigger props are better
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 09:29 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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Pete - the basic fuselage is where I'll start on this one - partly to check out the slot-and-tab thing but also the dreaded lower centre-section and UC arrangements. And (big sigh from Peter..) I want to try an alternative (for me) securing of the rear CS struts to see if it possible to clear the cockpit area a little. I'll do the designed method first and then see if my mod is possible.

I also have ideas about a proper jigged assembly to get everything right - a big piece of 1/2" ply with various supports and jigs to ensure proper alignment. Big biplanes are a bit scary if left to 'eyeballing' this area!

IF this model comes out at less than 5lb as Peter suggests, it may mean a rethink on the required power setup. Or just pile on a bit more paint and detail

Pat (building a Be12a pilot)
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 10:44 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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Checking the bits....

A good way to familiarise one's self with a 'kit' project is check all the parts against the plans and since today (like yesterday, and the days before, is squally, sleety, haily and generally miserable, a workshop day counting Brisfit bits seemed in order

I counted 64 main ribs on the plan and only 60 on the parts sheets. Uh-oh. Then read the plan properly and noted that the tip ribs should be manufactured in place because they need to fit the mode of construction used on the tips. Whew!

Then I found I was short of four R6 ribs and had four too many R6B ribs. Even my ancient brain smelled a rat - they are the same shape rib but some have unneeded servo lead holes. A quick update on the plan will avoid confusion. All ribs present and mostly correct. Care is needed here as not only are there many different shaped ribs and subribs, they are of liteply, 1/16, 3/32, 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4 balsa

The front engine mount former F1 is laminated from 1/8 ply but I can only find one lamination. Easy fix - make another F1 the same!

The vaguaries of wood sizing means that '1/8' can nowdays be anything from 3-4mm! Unfortunately, the supplied 1/8 standard ply is close to 4mm so some slots in the laminated side panels will need opening out BEFORE laminating the fuse sides. Also, the undercarriage plate is laminated from two 1/8 pieces and finishes up 7.9mm thick. This means the rebate in the fuselage sides will need to be deepened and the various internal formers shortened. I'll explain this more when I get around to building but with wood sizes so variable, the engineering precision afforded by CAD and laser-cutting is thwarted somewhat! Even with laser cut parts, it pays to check things - forewarned is forearmed

If thats all I can whinge about, things are looking good! Bits for the exhaust manifolds and their fairings are even supplied - always a pain to construct.

Can I wait to start building.........?

Pat
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 11:01 PM
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It has always been interesting to me that 3mm ply ends up almost 4mm. Liteply is usually closer to 3mm. What's worse is that when it is thicker it usually means there is more glue. That means much more difficult to cut and bad charcoal edges.

charlie
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 11:18 PM
a.k.a Maltone
Australia, NSW, Goulburn
Joined Jan 2005
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Charlie - my LHS sold me a sheet of 1/8 ply that turned out to be 5 ply and was 4.4mm thick! Wood sizes must make your life difficult esp. with full kits where it is reasonable to expect everything to fit together

Pat
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 11:28 PM
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Despite being 4.4mm thick if you looked at the mfg stamp it would say 3mm.

The problem is the next set of sheets might be closer to 3mm.
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