|Apr 19, 2003, 12:24 AM|
So far,"WE" have two people discussing this and one seems to be a newbie who thinks that a poll answered by the 90% newbie population, either "here" or "there", will "settle" proper heli mantenance issues I suggest doing a search on Runryder for info on this issue.
|Apr 19, 2003, 12:31 AM|
tried to vote, but something doesn't work.
I have worked with one way friction clutches several times in the past as part of my real job.
Do not lubricate. They are friction based.
Some types may benefit from internal lubrication, but it is extremely difficult to keep the lubricant where you want it. We had to use extremely expensive lubricants for this purpose (Approx $350 for 5 oz).
|Apr 19, 2003, 12:41 AM|
As a Newbie myself, I am not sure how to take that message
I hope my lack of experience with electric helicopters does not negate my 15+ years of electronics experience, with an emphasis on electro-mechanical devices.
I would also think that the last 7 years I spent as a Senior Field Service Engineer for Semiconductor Manufacturing Equipment (heavy on electro-mechanical, pneumatics, robotics, environmental controls, and servo operations) as well as the 4 years my handy work was being used in conventional and nuclear generating facilities should be considered as well. (we will leave out the sub-micron processing experience, or the move to tech support for multi million dollar tools)
No hard feelings at all, but I think that message struck a little, itsy bitsy, tiny nerve. Don't judge a newbie by his/her cover (or number of posts).
(while reviewing this post, it's starting to look like a resume )
And generally speaking, don't grease a one way friction clutch. The grease kind of defeats the whole friction thing...
|Apr 19, 2003, 01:03 AM|
Look at the order of the posts - how on earth could I have been talking about you? Perhaps I could be getting just a little cynical about the average newbies' general tendency to re-engineer kits, pronounce products they abuse or setup incorrectly as crap, or want to engage in phlosophical debates about everything instead of just doing "what works" and/or following instructions to get their first heli in the air
I'll always remember a guy who cut a battery hatch in side of the fuselage just ahead of the tail of his Sig Kadet MkII for some reason that I'll never understand
I judge newbies by how carefully they follow the instructions or how much they drag their ego into things
BTW Ralf Buxnowitz's general advice to this newbie back in 2000 was to lube nothing but the thrust bearings in a fresh build.
Glen Peden - Mikado/RC-Direct field rep
Visit the LOGOmaniac Forums
|Apr 19, 2003, 11:08 AM|
Vote for grease! Vote for grease!:D
Glen-This post is (was ) a part of a strategy to attract logo pilots to logomania forums (until you blew my cover )
davensocal - thank YOU for support, I guess its like in any other society-you have to earn your rep, and it takes loooong time, and old-timers are not easy with it; even more so if you "don't go with the flow"
You DO have a great resume I see
Well, me as mechanical engineer-I even dream about bearings sometimes
Oh, by the way - it is not a friction clutch, its a type of roller bearing:
"One-way clutch bearings allow shafts to be driven in only one direction; it allows one shaft to "freewheel" if it is spinning in the opposite direction from the direction at which the clutch is designed to engage. The one-way clutch bearing is designed very much like the roller bearing, but the rollers are allowed to move up small ramps. When the shaft turns in direction that locks the clutch, the rollers roll up small ramps and wedge into cavities. When this happens, the clutch locks and the shaft will drive the gear, or the gear will drive the shaft."
Also found this nice explanation on web, one thing I disagree with-they say you need to use "VERY THIN OIL"
Looks like in RC information oceans there is not much scientific facts...
There is even small animation of how they work, you have to press play.
One thing I found , which looks stupid but true-some rc-car one way bearings are made with plastic insert, which can be damaged by mineral oil products.
However Heli guys do not say "use light nonmineral oil" so I assume heli bearings are mineral oil tolerant.
Most one way bearings, if they are not submersed in oil in a gearbox, ARE GREASED!
I'm still greas'n! are you?
|Apr 19, 2003, 11:46 AM|
I grease with the rather light Tri-Flow grease, even though I "know" I shouldn't and have even had one bearing wear notches in the main shaft. I did not let this stop me because I found out that a batch of "soft" main shafts made it into the system awhile back.
The thing is, I am not ego-involved with the advice I give. If asked this question, I would tell what I do, but would also explain that most knowledgeable heli guys advise something different. The fact that you exclaimed thusly:
"One way bearing and washers you SHOULD grease"
...on the LOGOmaniac Forum sets me up for feeling that I must make sure that the complete picture is given. The fact that you are dispensing such advice in such a definite, absolute manner makes me wonder how much "real" model heli experience you have. Being an engineer, you must know that field trials for different utilizations are also part of the picture. The vast body of knowledge out there to which you refer is unfortunately mixed in with posts from what folks call "2 gallon wonders". An engineering degree doesn't make for an instant expert in this realm either.
BTW, I invited Mr. Wright to take part in those forums to help with "misinformations" being published there, even if it was my own For instance I know that he has a view contrary to mine about the B50-11L, but I welcome the additional perspective and vast experience. I base my recommendation not to mess with that motor only from the failures and troubles posted by others (plus conversations with John at RC-Direct), and wish to make recommendations that generally make for easier successes. I am asked for advice a LOT and constantly worry about the accuracy of what I say.
|Apr 19, 2003, 01:32 PM|
Glen-yes you are right.
Thing is-i'm used to making decisions for people who depend on me making the right decisions...
True-i really have VERY LITTLE experience with RC helis.
So here is the whole picture:
People are confused about one thing-rollers in one way bearing "move" in and out by few microns only, barrely noticeable with naked eye.
Grease is VERY unlikely gona prevent rollers from doing that.
Unless its dry. There are more chances to let it dry when using liquid oil vs grease. That being said, choose:
GREASE WAY: Grease it once, and forget. + clean and regrease after crash.
OIL WAY: Use light oil periodically. (every 5-10 flights?) + clean and oil it after crash.
When i assembled logo first time, i did nothing-bearing was packed with GREASE
Now when i have to change stripped main gear i will check it, if needed-clean and regrease
I want my heli maintenance free/lubrication free, and i assumed ( my mistake?) that everybody would want that.
|Apr 19, 2003, 01:36 PM|
and like I said in reply to that same post "over there", I do the same thing as you feor the same reasons, but.........
|Apr 20, 2003, 02:18 PM|
Umm, my response was not neccessarily (where's my spell checker?) directed to you. I think the point still stands, not all newbies are created equal.
Having said that, boy have I seen some incredible things done over the years!! I think the most frustrating points you have already covered. If only we could get people to think for themselves.... Well if they did learn to think for themselves, I would be out of work!!
I would also like to bring up the example of Jet Skis. If you mess with them, you have to carry a tow rope. It took a team of engineers years to design this thing, what makes you think you can redesign it?
We have two acronyms that seems appropriate, RSSO, Reset System, Slap Operator - and RTFM, Read The -------- Manual. You can guess what the dashes stand for (hope that's OK with Fred ).
The "one ways" I had used before were for simple, low load applications. They were not "one-way roller bearings", but they basically worked the same way. They had teeth that would drag on the main shaft in one direction, and when the direction was reversed, they would rotate to apply pressure to the shaft, thus engaging the shaft.
The key points are that the engaging of the clutch, or one way roller bearing requires friction. In your case it is the friction between the bearing and it's guides that causes the bearing to travel up the ramp. The second point is that at some point, the bearing will contact the shaft, and the friction between the bearing and the shaft will allow the transmission of power.
So, my vote stands..
P.S. I will leave you guys alone now..
|Apr 20, 2003, 02:39 PM|
"Glen-This post is (was ) a part of a strategy to attract logo pilots to logomania forums (until you blew my cover )"
Well, it worked on me!!!!!! I am now a LogoMania guy also. (always was, just slipped my mind it was there!)
I also voted for grease, but simply mean lubricate when serviced (not on a daily basis!) An auto trans torrington bearing is fully submerged in oil and grips fine. Just like what we use, pressure does the job vs direct friction.
As to the other who is who and newbie stuff. If a comment is valid, it is valid. But helis are their own world and experiance with them means something.
(hope that's OK with Fred So far yes since you didn't use any letters!!!!!!!
|Apr 20, 2003, 05:06 PM|
Fred is right-one way bearing can transfer tremendous ammounts of torque, and they do need lubrication, to prevent shaft/rollers and roller ramps from eating into each other.
As for lubrication you can find answers in the chat with Mikado owners transcript, at logomania forum.
|Apr 20, 2003, 05:20 PM|
|Apr 21, 2003, 04:43 PM|
Ok-I'm back in the air!
Changed stripped main gear today, added some MORE GREASE to autorotation hub, inspected it-everything looks fine, shaft looks nice and polished to mirror shine, no damage.
I was sure there were more than 12 people here flying CP helis with one way bearing
Don't be shy, vote for your prefered lubrication way!
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