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Old Oct 17, 2011, 08:00 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
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Wow! some of these post are almost enough to put people off certain forums, let alone building models.

I'm still glad I don't belong to a club any more. Get two or more aeromodellers together and you always have disagreements.
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Old Oct 17, 2011, 08:53 AM
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Ray disagreements are good some times it clears the air a bit. I have been in 2 clubs over 35 years and sometimes we argue but it is for the better of our club and our hobby. This thread has very little real arguing in it just guys stating their opinions a little loud.lol Me and toyrus had a few words but i still would go flying with him and show him how its done. lmao joe
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Old Oct 17, 2011, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
I can agree the Feds. can; and, do put their fingers into many cooky jars! However, balsa is heavily used in industry and cracking down on who has access to it would be severly stupid!
As the story goes for Gibson, what the feds have done there is not only severely stupid, its nearly criminal, if not totally against the law...and yes the feds can and do things like that.

Its a very interesting and unbelieveable story that's actually happening. ... my point is, don't take any of the materials we use for granted.... balsa doesn't grow in North America... so it falls into an imported material category...plain and simple...whereby the feds are the ones that do control what comes into every dock in the U.S.

I'm going to far off topic at this point, so I'll leave it alone.. but it is an interesting contrast when the main material we use in our hobby is dependent on import laws and regulations... back to the building stuff..
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Old Oct 17, 2011, 04:06 PM
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I think discussions about the materials we use to build our models with, is pretty much on-topic.

As far as the government taking control of the balsa supply, my questions were really about why the EPA would become involved? It would be completely out of their realm. Balsa is a biodegradable, organic and pretty much inert material and therefore non-poluting, and polution is what the EPA is all about.

However, you guys want to get into your conspiracy theorys, have at'r! I have no interest in running scared-paranoid about what the government is; or, is not going to do! Life is just way too short to put much worry into that!
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Old Oct 17, 2011, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
I think discussions about the materials we use to build our models with, is pretty much on-topic.

As far as the government taking control of the balsa supply, my questions were really about why the EPA would become involved? It would be completely out of their realm. Balsa is a biodegradable, organic and pretty much inert material and therefore non-poluting, and polution is what the EPA is all about.

However, you guys want to get into your conspiracy theorys, have at'r! I have no interest in running scared-paranoid about what the government is; or, is not going to do! Life is just way too short to put much worry into that!
Just like my harley my guns and my balsa ,they are going to have to pry them from my cold dead hands.

lol joe
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Old Oct 18, 2011, 03:46 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
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The 'what you build your models with' debate has been going on for years. Like too many things in life there are some who would never use some materials, (probably in the same way that some would never buy a car from certain manufacturers). But until most materials have been used, (with an open mind), then bias without experience can be a sad loss.

I do have my 'no thank you' materials, mostly what are used by the SPAD modelers, totally unrealistic I know.

But just to show how I do mix things to suit my models, (and wallet), I am currently building a Spitfire from a free magazine plan, 72" span, but it will be my version of the plan with the materials I want to use.

It will be electric powered, I don't use IC any more, but did for many years. I feel I can build the model for about half the weight of the model quoted in the magazine.

The point to this post, is that if we want more people to have a go at building models then we need to show them them that many different materials can be used, and that what you may have available might be suitable. There have been plenty of models built using cardboard as the main material.

The pictures show a mix of Depron foam and balsa. Depron to me is the nearest thing to balsa, and considerably cheaper here in the UK.

So choose your own method, materials, power systems by all means, but try not to put others new to the hobby off trying anything else if it will get them into the hobby and experience the thrill of building your own model.
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Old Oct 18, 2011, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by eflightray View Post
The 'what you build your models with' debate has been going on for years. Like too many things in life there are some who would never use some materials, (probably in the same way that some would never buy a car from certain manufacturers). But until most materials have been used, (with an open mind), then bias without experience can be a sad loss.

I do have my 'no thank you' materials, mostly what are used by the SPAD modelers, totally unrealistic I know.

But just to show how I do mix things to suit my models, (and wallet), I am currently building a Spitfire from a free magazine plan, 72" span, but it will be my version of the plan with the materials I want to use.

It will be electric powered, I don't use IC any more, but did for many years. I feel I can build the model for about half the weight of the model quoted in the magazine.

The point to this post, is that if we want more people to have a go at building models then we need to show them them that many different materials can be used, and that what you may have available might be suitable. There have been plenty of models built using cardboard as the main material.

The pictures show a mix of Depron foam and balsa. Depron to me is the nearest thing to balsa, and considerably cheaper here in the UK.

So choose your own method, materials, power systems by all means, but try not to put others new to the hobby off trying anything else if it will get them into the hobby and experience the thrill of building your own model.
Lookin' good, eflightray!

Aeronca
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Old Oct 18, 2011, 05:26 AM
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Thanks for sharing what and how you build Ray! I have to agree with everything you've said. Do you have some more photos of completed airplanes done with the method you describe?
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Last edited by Mode One; Oct 19, 2011 at 05:31 AM.
Old Oct 18, 2011, 07:34 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
Thanks for sharing what and how you build Ray! I have to agree with everything you've said. Do you have some more photos of completed airplanes down with the method you describe?
No sorry, that is as far as I have got with this one so far. Actually I didn't want to build another Spit, but was getting building withdrawal as I haven't built anything for a few months.
Having a free plan just meant I could get cutting and gluing quicker.

The original model in the mag was a balsa and ply build, IC powered, (1.20 four stroke), weighed 15lbs , (33oz/sq.ft. ).

If I can't build lighter, (certainly around 7lbs), and still get the sort of scalish flight I want for an electric Spit, then it's time to hang up my scalpel.

The construction will be very similar to my Dauntless, (67" span and under 5lbs flying).

By the way there is a modeler in the Jet Turbine forum using Depron and balsa as his build materials, (though he will glass the model), so using various materials shows that some modelers are willing to try.
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Old Oct 19, 2011, 05:43 AM
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Ray, I wasn't meaning the airplane your building; but, other completed airplanes using your building methods. My guess is the seaplane you've used as an avatar is built this way.

This is a challenge to anyone who uses different materials to build their models with, to post photos of what they have built with a short (or long) description of the process used here in the: "How do we bring model building back?" thread!!

If the Gum'ment is going to take away our balsa as some propose; or, more likely, the price of balsa becomes cost prohibitive to use as a building materail, then exposure to and information on alternatives is a genuinely good idea.

I don't believe this is the first time I've put this challenge out there in this thread and had no takers!
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Old Oct 19, 2011, 10:18 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
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Joined Mar 2003
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Here's the Dauntless thread - Douglas SBD Dauntless (She's flown), Now the video.

and the Sunderland thread - Sunderland Update. She flies. Now off water.

There are other similar models. It's nothing special, others are building with Depron and foam every day. It's probably more a case of thinking about building in the lightest way that will still be suitable for the models flight.

I build to survive flying, some people build more to survive crashing, bad landings etc. I build scale'ish models to fly in a scale'ish manner, some will build a scale model to look fantastic on the ground, and ignore all that extra weight that make it fly much too fast and look totally un-scale like in the air. There choice.

It's nothing special regarding techniques, it's just like building in balsa, but build it light for flight. It's amazing just what you don't need to put in a model, and it still flys great.

My big ducted prop, EDP, Mig - My "It's not a Mig 1.44", Latest video and a ......launch. was just something I fancied building just to prove to myself that it was feasible.
Having read plenty of threads in the EDF forum, (I fancied one), and thought the amps some of them tend to draw was just ridiculous. So a model came to mind, and that, 'how light could I build it and still survive reasonable scale'ish flight', plus this time 'how big'

The Spitfire build I am currently 'playing' with, is another 'I can do it lighter' challenge to me. The IC model designers have probably never considered alternative 'lighter' methods to any great degree. If they use foam, they will cover it in veneer or balsa, then glass it. Weight isn't a problem, they just fit a bigger engine.

Since I started flying electric it has shown a whole new way of thinking that meant trying to forget all my old IC building methods. If I did go back to IC, (no chance), I could build even those a lot lighter now.

Some will say, 'heavy models fly better', I would say, 'Ok, stop using balsa and build them of lead, and show me how much better they fly'.
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Old Oct 19, 2011, 04:34 PM
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Thanks for posting the links Ray. You do some wonderful work! The thread sort of shows how you go about it and I would say the Sunderland is as good as any balsa model I've ever seen. The foam airplanes I've seen, up close look like they're built from foam. I don't know much about Depron, where can it be purchased? As far as weight is concerned, lighter always does fly better, when it's calm. I would add that it has been my experience that bigger flys better, also.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 03:40 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
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South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
Thanks for posting the links Ray. You do some wonderful work! The thread sort of shows how you go about it and I would say the Sunderland is as good as any balsa model I've ever seen. The foam airplanes I've seen, up close look like they're built from foam. I don't know much about Depron, where can it be purchased? As far as weight is concerned, lighter always does fly better, when it's calm. I would add that it has been my experience that bigger flys better, also.
The 'when it's calm', to me is a bit of a fallacy.

A heavy plane may not show the turbulence and gusts up that a super lightweight may do, but they still can. There are plenty of videos of heavy scale models on Youtube showing them still twitching about in gusty conditions.
Heavy means a higher stalling speed. Heavier also means a greater perceived speed when travelling down wind, (ground speed), and that chance that the pilot will try to slow it down too much, (and the dreaded down wind turn wreckage). Heavy often needs a higher landing speed.
I have yet to see a bird carrying a house brick on a windy day just to fly better.

Wind just needs power to penetrate it, not weight. And that is only because we relate everything about flying to our fixed position on the ground. A lighter model can be slowed down when flying with the wind as it's lower stall speed is a benefit.

If it's that windy that my lighter models could get blown over on the ground, then I simply don't fly, and it has to be pretty windy to turn one of mine over.

It's another reason why I sometimes recommend people do not convert IC models to electric, they are loosing the benefit of being able to fly a lighter plane.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 05:46 AM
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You have your theory's, I have mine! I've found I'm far more likely to do damage to my small-light airplanes, in winds much over 6-10 miles and hour. Where as my my regular sized glow airplanes are very happy and easily manageable in these and higher wind speeds. It's not the wind speed so much as wind gradients and turbulence near the ground that affects the airplane.

But, like I said, you have your theory's and I have mine. Maybe both of us have been doing this long enough that our theory's are pretty much chiseled in stone, I know mine are! I'm also with you on when to fly and when not to fly as far as wind speed is concerned. Since flying takes a back seat to most everything I do and building is my real interest, I fly when the conditions are the way I like them; or, I wait until they are!
Now, I'll probably get scolded about: If you don't learn how to fly in the wind, you'll never fly. Well , in 40 plus years I've been doing this, I've gotten plenty of flying done and I certainly can fly in wind, just chose for the most part, not to.
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Old Oct 20, 2011, 07:37 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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".......I certainly can fly in wind, just chose for the most part, not to."


See, you could build lighter then
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