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Old Oct 25, 2010, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerogance View Post
ARF should be renamed BARF (Basically Almost Ready to Fly).

RTF should be renamed SWIFT (So What If Flies Terrible)

Kits should be renamed FUN (Flies Until Noodled)
I love to build. Could you please recommend a kit for me that will fly like this lousy BARF?

Thanks for any recommendations...

Parkzone Radian Hover and Slow-flight (3 min 19 sec)
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 10:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jcpatrick View Post
The key to 'bring model building back' is to not force people's nose into it, but offer them options they want, and let them fly. While flying, they will discover that building offers advantages you cannot buy off the shelf. But if they don't fly —if they are deterred or discouraged for using an ARF— then they will never build.
Jim,

I don't see where building is being "forced" upon anyone in any of the posts of this thread. Nor do I see the option of not building as a deterrence or a discouragement. I sort of took this statement as a warning to those that build to be careful not to deter or discourage those that do not build (as of yet) but want to fly.

As far as the one-design contest, great idea and I’m all for it. But I would hope that the kit-built models and the ARFs compete in different categories. I’ll enlist another Scouting scenario as an example.

In the Cub Scout program, the boys compete in racing small wooden cars that are made from kits. The kit consists of a 7” L X 1-1/4” H X 1-3/4” W block of wood (soft pine) plastic wheels and metal axles (nails). There are simple guidelines as to weight and overall dimensions of the finished car, but bringing that block of pine to resemble a car, or anything else, was up to the boy.

On race day, it was pretty obvious how much help a boy got with the construction of his car. To minimize dad’s (or mom’s) helping hand, we had an adult’s category. The really cool thing is that a couple of dads would bring in their boyhood cars - that they built themselves... Low and behold, the boy’s cars got a lot more simple, and the smiles of pride broader.

Now, just think if Pinewood Derby cars came in ARR/RTR (‘R’ for race instead of ‘F’ for fly) form. Would it be fair to race them with the self-built cars? I mean, after all, at least the boy with the ARR/RTR is participating, right? He *might* build his own car the next time, right? Well, how about the boy that DID build his own car? What about him? That’s a really loud-and-clear “SO WHAT!” He made the effort to build from a block of wood and what message is he getting sent to him? That plucking your money down is no different than building it yourself? How is that not the same as allowing ARFs/RTFs to compete in a one-design contest with self-built models?

From what you’re offering about the ARFs/RTFs being heavier, they’re really not going to perform as well as the self-built, lighter gliders anyway. How many of these ARF/RTF flyers are going to say to themselves, “hey, next time I’m going to build my own”, compared to those that say “this sucks!” and wander off to some other entertainment. And what of the youngster that built his own glider - a bit on the heavy-side - and doesn’t do as well as an ARF/RTF? Aren’t they going to wonder why they spent all that time building only to lose to a model that came out of the box pretty much complete? Which of these two would really be likely to stay with the hobby and promote building: the flyer that pulled an ARF/RTF out of a box, or the builder that built heavy, but thinks that he/she can build their next project lighter?

I agree that the more involved, the merrier, but we are talking about building here - not how to coax people into *maybe* building.

I’m NOT saying that ARFs/RTFs do not have a place in the hobby or that flying one is “cheating”. As a matter of fact, I’ve recommended to a few beginners that they purchase an ARF/RTF to get into the air and start flying and get a kit and start building their next model. I also have a friend that competes in large-scale R/C monoplane aerobatics (Extras, Yaks, etc.) and this guy can’t staple two pieces of paper together without a trip to the emergency room.

Bottom line, I’m with you though. If we can get an ARF/RTF flyer to build, all the better for building and the suppliers of the peripherals.

EJWash
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
I love to build. Could you please recommend a kit for me that will fly like this lousy BARF?
Good one Chuck! It does look like fun though...

Park Zone Radian - $160 (foam construction)

Goldberg Gentle Lady kit - $60

Not sure if there's a thread out there for an Gentle Lady electric conversion or not. You can also get a G.P Spectra for $80.00. That'll still give you some $$$ for the servos, battery, and ESC that are included with the Radian. NOT included with the Radian is the sense of self-pride...

EJWash
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 06:08 AM
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As the initiator of this thread, it had been my hope from the beginning not get involved in ARF vs Build! About half of my airplanes at this time are ARFs, so I'm a consumer of ARFs! They get you into the air quickly and they are what's available. NoFlyZone has printed a list of kit manufacturers a couple times in this thread. It shows there are many, many kit manufacturers out there. The reality is they are not very visible! Far and away, the majority of the manufacturers on his list, I have never heard of before!

I'm unsure what generation is being discussed here! My sons, 30 and 32 years old. Built fantastic Lego models, built plastic models and were involved in R/C Cars and trucks that were built from kits having hundreds of parts! The oldest son is interested in R/C airplanes and I think he might someday take the plunge. The younger son is more settled, has his own home and maybe will get involved, also. When young, both were heavily exposed to this hobby as the Club's flying field was on my property when they were growing up, therefore they may not be examples of typical non-modeling youth of today.

I've dreamed of flying my whole life! Have been involved in building flying models since very young. Many of my childhood friends where the same way. Flying and aviation are so common today, that I don't think kids think like I did, anymore
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 06:30 AM
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United States, OH, Bradford
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
I love to build. Could you please recommend a kit for me that will fly like this lousy BARF?
Gentle Lady is very popular. Not too difficult to build, but the construction is a bit unnecessarily complicated. The plane has evolved over the years, and as weak points were found, they stuck structural "band-aids" on them, resulting in a wing spar system that looks like it was designed by committee. Thick, old-fashioned airfoils that do OK at low speeds but limit high speed potential. Otherwise, a good flyer, probably similar in performance to your Radian.

Sig Riser 2-meter. A bit simpler and beefier construction than the G.L., a bit heavier, still uses a too-thick old-fashioned airfoil selection (which limits performance a bit). Probably not quite as good at low speeds as a G.L., but close, and overall a very good flyer.

Our Chrysalis 2-meter, available as a pure sailplane or an electric. Comes with spoilers as standard equipment, and it needs them. Plans and instructions are written for beginners, very detailed and even recommend what kinds of glue to use for individual joints. Can be built with your choice of V-tail or conventional tail. We also sell separate wing and fuselage+tail kits, so a lot of folks get one wing and both the sailplane and electric fuselages. The plane has about the same low speed performance as the G.L, but much better range and penetration. www.djaerotech.com

There are a number of others.
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Last edited by Don Stackhouse; Oct 26, 2010 at 08:12 AM.
Old Oct 26, 2010, 08:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone View Post
I love to build. Could you please recommend a kit for me that will fly like this lousy BARF?
+1 on the excellent point. It appears it was missed by a few folks.
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 08:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJWash1 View Post
Good one Chuck! It does look like fun though...

Park Zone Radian - $160 (foam construction)

Goldberg Gentle Lady kit - $60

Not sure if there's a thread out there for an Gentle Lady electric conversion or not. You can also get a G.P Spectra for $80.00. That'll still give you some $$$ for the servos, battery, and ESC that are included with the Radian. NOT included with the Radian is the sense of self-pride...

EJWash
Hi EJ,

That $160 includes a heavy duty brushless motor, spinner, folding prop, servos, and an esc...
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 08:49 AM
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Is this turning into an ARF info thread ? I'm not interested in $160.00 ARFs.

Let's talk about building, not assembling.
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TomCrump View Post
Is this turning into an ARF info thread ? I'm not interested in $160.00 ARFs.

Let's talk about building, not assembling.
Sorry, was just responding to an ARF comparison...
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCrump View Post
Is this turning into an ARF info thread ? I'm not interested in $160.00 ARFs.

Let's talk about building, not assembling.
I don't think it's an 'ARF info thread', I think someone just came along and pointed out the false claims that others made about the quality and performance of ARF's.

And I thought the thread was about how to get others interested in building, not building itself.
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 08:32 PM
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Arbo, It's about getting folks interested in building, and the best way to do that is by talking about how fun it is to build!
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Old Oct 26, 2010, 08:35 PM
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A little discussion about ARFs is fine. However most of the R/C forums are pretty heavy with ARF discussions, so let's keep it a little!
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Old Oct 27, 2010, 07:04 PM
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Blackstock, South Carolina
Joined Sep 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EJWash1 View Post
Jim,

I don't see where building is being "forced" upon anyone in any of the posts of this thread. Nor do I see the option of not building as a deterrence or a discouragement. I sort of took this statement as a warning to those that build to be careful not to deter or discourage those that do not build (as of yet) but want to fly.

As far as the one-design contest, great idea and I’m all for it. But I would hope that the kit-built models and the ARFs compete in different categories. I’ll enlist another Scouting scenario as an example.

In the Cub Scout program, the boys compete in racing small wooden cars that are made from kits. The kit consists of a 7” L X 1-1/4” H X 1-3/4” W block of wood (soft pine) plastic wheels and metal axles (nails). There are simple guidelines as to weight and overall dimensions of the finished car, but bringing that block of pine to resemble a car, or anything else, was up to the boy.

On race day, it was pretty obvious how much help a boy got with the construction of his car. To minimize dad’s (or mom’s) helping hand, we had an adult’s category. The really cool thing is that a couple of dads would bring in their boyhood cars - that they built themselves... Low and behold, the boy’s cars got a lot more simple, and the smiles of pride broader.

Now, just think if Pinewood Derby cars came in ARR/RTR (‘R’ for race instead of ‘F’ for fly) form. Would it be fair to race them with the self-built cars? I mean, after all, at least the boy with the ARR/RTR is participating, right? He *might* build his own car the next time, right? Well, how about the boy that DID build his own car? What about him? That’s a really loud-and-clear “SO WHAT!” He made the effort to build from a block of wood and what message is he getting sent to him? That plucking your money down is no different than building it yourself? How is that not the same as allowing ARFs/RTFs to compete in a one-design contest with self-built models?

From what you’re offering about the ARFs/RTFs being heavier, they’re really not going to perform as well as the self-built, lighter gliders anyway. How many of these ARF/RTF flyers are going to say to themselves, “hey, next time I’m going to build my own”, compared to those that say “this sucks!” and wander off to some other entertainment. And what of the youngster that built his own glider - a bit on the heavy-side - and doesn’t do as well as an ARF/RTF? Aren’t they going to wonder why they spent all that time building only to lose to a model that came out of the box pretty much complete? Which of these two would really be likely to stay with the hobby and promote building: the flyer that pulled an ARF/RTF out of a box, or the builder that built heavy, but thinks that he/she can build their next project lighter?

I agree that the more involved, the merrier, but we are talking about building here - not how to coax people into *maybe* building.

I’m NOT saying that ARFs/RTFs do not have a place in the hobby or that flying one is “cheating”. As a matter of fact, I’ve recommended to a few beginners that they purchase an ARF/RTF to get into the air and start flying and get a kit and start building their next model. I also have a friend that competes in large-scale R/C monoplane aerobatics (Extras, Yaks, etc.) and this guy can’t staple two pieces of paper together without a trip to the emergency room.

Bottom line, I’m with you though. If we can get an ARF/RTF flyer to build, all the better for building and the suppliers of the peripherals.

EJWash
Reminds me of a commercial...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCrump View Post
Is this turning into an ARF info thread ? I'm not interested in $160.00 ARFs.

Let's talk about building, not assembling.
He's not talking about $160 dollar ARFs, he's giving comparisons of an ARF to someone who would rather have a kit with the same flying charactersitics
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Old Oct 27, 2010, 09:59 PM
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Joined Feb 2010
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People really need to try kit building. I'm 14 and I started out with a few ARFs over the past year. Last month I got an SA Shaft 25e kit (its so easy to build its barely a "kit") and I loved it. I am now almost to the fun covering stage on my new Sig Four-Star 20ep kit. I just don't get the excuse of "I don't have any time" or "I think its to hard" because its a hobby that takes time and I think building is an important part of it. And even though the kits I have already built are quite easy and no where near the skill level of traditional stick kits, I think I could tackle a bigger project. Anyway, I'm not saying ARFs are bad I just think all modelers should a try kit just once and I think they will find that they enjoy it.
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Old Oct 28, 2010, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fly Wheel View Post
Reminds me of a commercial...
I've seen this commercial as of late, but I ain't no Joe Biden!

EJWash
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