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Old Oct 23, 2010, 10:45 PM
I'm a pilot... 100 yrs to late
Thermalin's Avatar
USA, FL, Palm Harbor
Joined Jan 2005
3,454 Posts
I feel the main issue is younger people today (I was 14 when I started RC but quite a few years younger than that with stick and tissue types) don't have the patience and or attention span to build for reasons we're all aware of. However it is much easier to get them started today than it was years ago with all the relatively inexpensive RTF electrics available. And genearlly, as those in the hobby mature in terms of time spent in RC, they are more willing to try building and they may like it. ysWhat I have found is getting fathers of boys is very easy. I have two in the works now as they always say, I loved airplanes as a kid and I always wanted to try RC. Now the young one is brought in as well.
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 10:11 AM
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Don Stackhouse's Avatar
United States, OH, Bradford
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermalin View Post
I feel the main issue is younger people today (I was 14 when I started RC but quite a few years younger than that with stick and tissue types) don't have the patience and or attention span to build...
Similar story for me. Back then, I did not have the patience, either. I could build a model (even a scratch-built original design) in the morning, slap a coat of dope on it (that's all my $.25 a week allowance could afford), let that dry while I ate lunch, and then have it wrecked by dinner time.

Then I got a Sterling "Schweitzer 1-34" sailplane kit. No matter what I did, it was so big and complicated (especially since this was before CA glue, so I built it with Titebond) that there was no way to get it done in less than one summer. It got me past the "hurry up and build it so we can fly it" hurdle.

Now I can't build quickly to save my soul.

Modeling doesn't require patience, it will TEACH you patience.
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 03:28 PM
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Joined Dec 2006
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I have no way of determining if the younger folks do; or, do not have the patience to build R/C models and that was not what I'm addressing in my comments above. I think they simply lack interest in aviation, R/C and model building.
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 05:08 PM
Build to Fly? FLY to BUILD!
Legot's Avatar
United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Nov 2009
1,104 Posts
Im one of the "younger folks", and I can tell you, when I started like early last year, I look back now and see I had too little patience, and to much ambition. The two dont work well together.

It shows that you have to get younger people to be hooked on something, so that it would suck (for them) if they made themselves quit.

Treachery anyone? >

I have patience now, and with it, skillz
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 05:30 PM
I'm a pilot... 100 yrs to late
Thermalin's Avatar
USA, FL, Palm Harbor
Joined Jan 2005
3,454 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
.............. I think they simply lack interest in aviation, R/C and model building.
I think one is inclined to look up when they hear a motor (or look for soaring birds) ... or they aren't. Personally I can't remember not having a guilllows rubber powered model in my hand when I was kid. I beleive the issue is model building in general. I also feel it has to do with as was mentioned "progress". In my younger days I didn't have 3 activities after school and wasn't under the pressure to know what I wanted to be or where I wanted to go to college in the 8th grade! Dad worked 9 to 5 and was home at night. That left time to "explore" other interests. It did help we had a family friend who was into "RC" and I still remember the single stick Orbit radio I beleive it was. One trip to the field and that did it. It was like.. HOLD THE PHONE !.. I can actually make a model do what I WANT !! So find the ones that like to look up and nudge'm
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Old Oct 24, 2010, 09:42 PM
treefinder
springer's Avatar
SE MI
Joined Oct 2004
9,783 Posts
If you will pardon me for tooting my own horn a bit, check out this link for a video of a young fellow and his OSG (OverSizeGlider) 10ft wingspan flight: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...138106&page=77 I did the original OSG (one sheet glider) design at 60"span for a contest (that never actually got started) to build a complete plane out of one sheet of Dollar Store foam board. It's a pretty decent flyer and has a small following, but young Cole (AntiGravity) expanded it to a three meter plane, still out of dollarstore foam, and it flys very nicely (with the exception of the wing fold at end of vid, but I'm sure he's learned from it!). I tend to agree with Legot and Thermalin, that some kids get the bug, while most others don't due to so much other 'stuff' in their lives. But those who get the bug do some amazing things.
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 01:02 AM
AMA 910957
EJWash1's Avatar
United States, WA, Hoodsport
Joined Mar 2008
5,292 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode One View Post
I have no way of determining if the younger folks do; or, do not have the patience to build R/C models and that was not what I'm addressing in my comments above. I think they simply lack interest in aviation, R/C and model building.
Since you brought up the topic of youth involvement (or lack of) in the hobby, allow me to offer the following.

I was on hiatus from the hobby for just over twenty years while raising a family. During this time, I was an adult leader in my son’s Cub and Boy Scout units. I was involved in Scouting as a young man, and credit this organization with my thirty-plus year career in aviation. I saw it as an obligation to expose my son to this lifeskill-building organization.

Packs and Troops are free to define their unit's personality or theme as they wish. This being the case, you have units that stick to the spirit of the organization, and some that are more relaxed. Our unit was one that sided on the spirit of the organization and presented the program as outlined. As a result, we had quite a turnover in the first few years, but settled down to attract those that were more serious about the program. Under my six-year watch of the troop, we held membership at just over thirty boys and probably cycled through triple that number in that period.

The loudest voices of malcontent came from the parents. “why isn’t my son advancing with the others?” “How come my son wasn’t elected to a leadership role?” were the main complaints. The answers? Because your son hasn’t completed the requirements. Because the other boys didn’t elect him. Why? Soccer, football, baseball, chess club, tiddlywinks - you name it. The biggest competitor in advancement (or lack or of) was video games. That was ten years ago, and instant-gratification is alive and well in the USA. It’s not “work hard to get ahead”, it’s why work at all. Throw a ball. Make a sound with your voice. Dance. Act. Get a reality show. What the heck, crash the White House (as bankrupt scum-bag) and live the life of Riley.

The above are just a few things thrown in the path of trying to guide a few lads down the path of self-confidence. In the troop we were lucky enough to see six young men earn the coveted rank of Eagle Scout (my son included) and one young man attend the USAF Academy (class of 2008). This in the face of the constant bombardment of so many frivolous “entertainments”.

So, should we categorize ARFs/RTFs as entertainments, and flying what you build as “the hobby”? Yes, and I personally don’t have a problem with that. Invest your time and talent in building and flying what you’ve built and offer otherwise.

EJWash
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 10:03 AM
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vintage1's Avatar
East Anglia, UK
Joined Sep 2002
29,703 Posts
Oh EJ, how bloody true. Its the same here.

'the kids must have self confidence" So give them spurious status.
"people with degrees earn more money" so give everyone a degree
"A healthy economy has a low unemployment rate" So create public sector make work jobs..

People with diseases run high temperatures. So give the economy an aspirin!. (QE)

In other words, address the symptoms, not the cause.

REAL self confidence comes from knowing how to handle yourself. Not from being told you are great.
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 01:28 PM
Ochroma Lagopus Tekton
Fly Wheel's Avatar
Blackstock, South Carolina
Joined Sep 2007
1,829 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Stackhouse View Post
Similar story for me. Back then, I did not have the patience, either. I could build a model (even a scratch-built original design) in the morning, slap a coat of dope on it (that's all my $.25 a week allowance could afford), let that dry while I ate lunch, and then have it wrecked by dinner time.

Then I got a Sterling "Schweitzer 1-34" sailplane kit. No matter what I did, it was so big and complicated (especially since this was before CA glue, so I built it with Titebond) that there was no way to get it done in less than one summer. It got me past the "hurry up and build it so we can fly it" hurdle.

Now I can't build quickly to save my soul.

Modeling doesn't require patience, it will TEACH you patience.
Tell me about it. It took me a few weeks to put together an Easy Star!
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 01:53 PM
Suspended Account
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Originally Posted by Fly Wheel View Post
Tell me about it. It took me a few weeks to put together an Easy Star!
It still takes me a week to put an Easy Star together. Wouldn't have it any other way...
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 03:41 PM
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Joined May 2000
8,535 Posts
Uh, don't scratch build a model of any plane there is already an ARF of? That way people see the 'cool' stuff has to be built, not bought?
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 06:03 PM
AMA 910957
EJWash1's Avatar
United States, WA, Hoodsport
Joined Mar 2008
5,292 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintage1 View Post
REAL self confidence comes from knowing how to handle yourself. Not from being told you are great.
Exactly! And this is a *part* of the issue of this thread. It's no longer necessary to learn how to handle yourself, nor are a vast majority of the youth of our societies being given the guidance, tools or opportunities (proving grounds) to build self-confidence and self-respect. The majority aren't being guided (raised) to the point where they look at a task and say to themselves: "I can do that", or "I'll give it a try". Why would they when whatever they want or need is given to them if they make enough noise, or they rally their "buddies" not to give the same task that they are faced with a go so they don't stick out as the only one that didn't give "it" a try? The result is that even the simplest of tasks becomes monumental. "Difficult" in present times was "simple" a few generations ago.

What does all of the above have to do with modeling? Plenty. If anyone has been in the hobby even a year, someone has approached them at the flying field and asked you how our models work and where we get them. If you answer that you built your model yourself, they are instantly going to draw a conclusion as to if they could build something like this or not. Industrial Arts haven't been offered in public schools for a long time now, so chances are pretty good that they haven't been exposed to the opportunity to build basic woodworking skills. I have had a couple of enthusiast say that they'd built stick-and-tissue models before, and are surprised when I tell them that if they can do that, they can build a simple trainer. But, it comes back to having built a sense of self-confidence, now doesn't it?

I remember talking to my college roommate some years ago. We both had young sons, his became involved in soccer, mine in little league baseball. My friend was pretty excited to tell me that their league did not keep score so no player would feel bad. Now, I could maybe see this if the kids were of pre-school age (5-6 years old) but these were fourth and fifth graders. If this is the rule and attitude, when does the lesson of loosing for lack of skill or getting beat by a better team come in? When does this translate into adult life, or is it the case that the rules and expectations are being changed (relaxed) from generation to generation?

EJWash
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 06:49 PM
KE your cub.
Curare's Avatar
in the gutter, again....
Joined Jun 2005
4,135 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by EJWash1 View Post
Exactly! And this is a *part* of the issue of this thread. It's no longer necessary to learn how to handle yourself, nor are a vast majority of the youth of our societies being given the guidance, tools or opportunities (proving grounds) to build self-confidence and self-respect. The majority aren't being guided (raised) to the point where they look at a task and say to themselves: "I can do that", or "I'll give it a try". Why would they when whatever they want or need is given to them if they make enough noise, or they rally their "buddies" not to give the same task that they are faced with a go so they don't stick out as the only one that didn't give "it" a try? The result is that even the simplest of tasks becomes monumental. "Difficult" in present times was "simple" a few generations ago.

What does all of the above have to do with modeling? Plenty. If anyone has been in the hobby even a year, someone has approached them at the flying field and asked you how our models work and where we get them. If you answer that you built your model yourself, they are instantly going to draw a conclusion as to if they could build something like this or not. Industrial Arts haven't been offered in public schools for a long time now, so chances are pretty good that they haven't been exposed to the opportunity to build basic woodworking skills. I have had a couple of enthusiast say that they'd built stick-and-tissue models before, and are surprised when I tell them that if they can do that, they can build a simple trainer. But, it comes back to having built a sense of self-confidence, now doesn't it?

I remember talking to my college roommate some years ago. We both had young sons, his became involved in soccer, mine in little league baseball. My friend was pretty excited to tell me that their league did not keep score so no player would feel bad. Now, I could maybe see this if the kids were of pre-school age (5-6 years old) but these were fourth and fifth graders. If this is the rule and attitude, when does the lesson of loosing for lack of skill or getting beat by a better team come in? When does this translate into adult life, or is it the case that the rules and expectations are being changed (relaxed) from generation to generation?

EJWash


An interesting observation, I too feel that there is going to be mass chaos, and unbeleivable amounts of confusion and bafflement from these generations. If you thought your generation was messed up, hold onto your hats people!
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 06:57 PM
Jim C Patrick
jcpatrick's Avatar
Shenandoah County
Joined Jan 2008
865 Posts
On another forum's thread one of the clubs is thinking about a one-design sailplane building project. But one of the suggestions was about allowing a one-design contest that included both kits and ARFs. It was one of the best suggestions for "How we can bring model building back".

The poster's club had a Gentle Lady contest, but there is also the Bird of Time and the Spirit sailplanes. A little research will find more pairs of kit and ARF for powered models too.

Gentle Lady 2-Meter 663sq in
Kit. $60 Weight: 22oz (4.77 oz/sq ft)
ARF $150 Weight: 25oz (5.42 oz/sq ft) 15% heavier

Bird Of Time 3-Meter 1070 sq in
Kit. $70 Weight: 41oz (5.5 oz/sq ft)
ARF $150 Weight: 60oz (8.2 oz/sq ft) 45% heavier

Non-builders (ARF) get to fly sooner and practice more, so theoretically can become better pilots. Kit builders end up with better flying, lighter models, customs colors; and have the option for winch-proof spars and other significant mechanical advantages.

Spirit / Spirit Elite 2-Meter 676 sq in
Spirit Kit RE(S) $60 Weight: 30oz (6.5 oz/sq ft)
Elite ARF AFRE $130 Weight: 47oz (10.5oz/sq ft) 50% heavier

With the Spirit and Spirit Elite pair, kit builders will have far less weight and a simpler to fly model; while ARFies have a steeper learning curve with more control over a heavier craft.

The key to 'bring model building back' is to not force people's nose into it, but offer them options they want, and let them fly. While flying, they will discover that building offers advantages you cannot buy off the shelf. But if they don't fly —if they are deterred or discouraged for using an ARF— then they will never build.
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Old Oct 25, 2010, 10:35 PM
JWs are Shear Fun!
Aerogance's Avatar
USA
Joined Sep 2008
2,683 Posts
ARF should be renamed BARF (Basically Almost Ready to Fly).

RTF should be renamed SWIFT (So What If Flies Terrible)

Kits should be renamed FUN (Flies Until Noodled)
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