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Old Aug 29, 2009, 09:14 AM
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EJWash1's Avatar
United States, WA, Hoodsport
Joined Mar 2008
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Hi Steve,

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstick
What's with the "Not so fast" ? You're making my point for me. The creative part of the hobby today isn't taking bits of trees and turning them into aeroplanes, it's taking ARF/RTF planes and sorting out the complex Tx mixes...
My point was that the "carburetor" may have gone away, but the element of "tweaking" has not. Point taken on your response.

EJWash
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Old Aug 29, 2009, 04:04 PM
yyz
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USA, CA, Paso Robles
Joined Dec 2004
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The light just came on

Chuck,

I've been trying to put myself in your shoes and understand your side of this and your reason for posting what you have so far. Had I spent the same amount of time looking for ways to promote the building of model airplanes, I'm sure the starter of this thread would be much happier.

I've read this thread, and your posts specifically, several times now and believe I have a better sense of where you are coming from. The statements about ARF buyers and fliers wanting "instant gratification" is the exposed nerve that has been hit.

The original poster, as I read it, was suggesting that people who haven' tried building should give it a try. The only thing he said that could be misconstrued as non-constructive was his "... not wanting to hear the excuses..". Maybe he should have worded that differently or not said it at all. I've said the very same thing before but have learned that it doesn't help the cause; I think it alienates more potential builders than it encourages.

I am at a real loss to how you took any part of the original post as "this is how you should or have to spend your spare time to have a meaningful life.." or "projected his sense of what is worthwhile....".

I'm not even sure what to do with your calligraphy analogy. I wish we could discuss that one over a beer. We can and should take that off-line, if you like. If this sounds like a personal attack, please report me, like you have others.

You are bringing some baggage to this thread that isn't constructive. The intent of this conversation is to promote model building, not to stir up sh or push some hidden agenda or grind an axe you have with a builder in your club that pissed you off.

Your lurking and provoking in this thread is the equivalent of an SPCA member hanging out in an NRA thread and bitching about people trying to promote hunting.

If you don't like to build or even someone suggesting that you could get more out of this hobby by building, why in the hell are you reading posts in this group. The group name is "The Builders Workshop" and the title of this thread is "How do we bring model building back?".

I truly hope the non-US poster will enlighten us and help this thread along. Why is this valued and supported in other cultures? As I said, before, I think many people value the skills that can be learned by creating things with your hands. I would include calligraphy in that list as well as model building, gardening, fly tying, etc, etc, etc.

Our local club did a demonstration and question and answer period for the kids at the elementary school where we fly. It was a huge success. The next generation of children is where, I believe, our education efforts should be focused.

If they are exposed to and end up enjoying the hobby and build something, great.I If they get inspired and want to learn to fly an ARF plane, fantastic.

This isn't a mind control experiment from the '60s. No one is forcing you or anyone else to do or believe anything you don't want to believe. I will however ask you kindly to not undermine or derail efforts to promote facets of the hobby that are proven to be enjoyable and beneficial later in life.

Sincerely,

Mike

ps: my apologies for the length of this post.












Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
Easy actually. I recognize the same thought pattern that rears it's ugly head every time this 'building from balsa' vs ARF topic comes up. Just like the original poster exclaimed when he stated that he won't even entertain the notion of people not having the time to build. It riles him, and irks him. Why? Because he has projected his own sense of what is worthwhile onto everyone whom doesn't agree with his manner of getting 'personal satisfaction'.

Tell me the difference between the building from balsa scenario, and the following one.

I am a fairly decent calligrapher. It took me years to develop my skills. I can't stand the lazy people in this world whom think that 'writing' is merely picking up a ballpoint pen and scribbling hash marks on a piece of paper. Everyone whom doesn't take the time to learn how to use flat nibbed pens is a lazy person seeking "instant gratification". Lazy people can't write their own name so that it's legible. Their chicken scratchings look like the epitome of sheer laziness, and something they can not take pride in.

Are you a member of the instant gratification crowd, perfectly happy to just grab a ballpoint pen and start writing what looks like a foreign language?

I say you can only know what true inner satisfaction is by spending a few minutes to an hour a day practicing your written communication skills. And if you'd rather peck away at a computer keyboard than take pen and ink to paper, you're just looking for instant gratification.

Tell me, Mike, Mode One, and everyone else.... what's the difference?

Chuck
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Old Aug 29, 2009, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz

Your lurking and provoking in this thread is the equivalent of an SPCA member hanging out in an NRA thread and bitching about people trying to promote hunting.
Then the SPCA member would have to explain why he's carrying a dressed and skinned White Tail buck to the meeting, being as that 1/3 of my fleet are balsa kits....

Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz

If you don't like to build or even someone suggesting that you could get more out of this hobby by building, why in the hell are you reading posts in this group. The group name is "The Builders Workshop" and the title of this thread is "How do we bring model building back?".
That's just it. I love to build, and am continuing to grow my skill sets in building.

You see, Mike... the guy whom got me started in building is one of my mentors here on RC Groups. For the couple of years we knew each other prior to my first attempt at building from balsa, he never once tried to imply that somehow, I wasn't really having the kind of fun I should be having as I played with my foamies. He never once implied that balsa plane building would make my evenings in my shop more enjoyable if only I would relegate the foamies to the trash heap.

Here's the deal, Mike. BruceA could see that, given the type of foamie builder I was, paying ungodly amounts of time to making sure that all my foam planes were dead nuts straight, and with inordinate amounts of time taken to ensure wickedly accurate airframes.... that I was already a balsa builder at heart; even before I knew what balsa really was.

He knew that real balsa builders are born, Mike; not made. Think about this comment a little, and you'll see that it rings very clearly.

Bruce knew that it was only a matter of time before I explored kit building, and he let me take my time, with only an occasional hint that I might find it enjoyable, given the way in which I built my foamies.

And when I was ready, he was there to answer my questions, and even to produce the best covering tutorial I've ever seen anywhere for guys like myself who were eager, but terrified of covering.

He didn't try to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And that's why I rail against people whom seek to find ways to turn non balsa builders into builders by trying to convince them that they will never know the self satisfaction of doing anything.... unless it's the self satisfaction of building a balsa kit.

It's elitism at it's finest. And that's why the answer to this question will never be answered; especially when posed such as it was.

We're born, Mike, not made...

Take care,

Chuck
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Last edited by NoFlyZone; Aug 29, 2009 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Added link to Bruce's covering tutorial
Old Aug 29, 2009, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yyz

I'm not even sure what to do with your calligraphy analogy. I wish we could discuss that one over a beer. We can and should take that off-line, if you like. If this sounds like a personal attack, please report me, like you have others.
Hi Mike,

I'd like to clear something up here, as that last line has me a little confused. To begin with, I have never reported someone for attacking me. Secondly, any time I do report a post, I stand tall and announce to the original poster that it was I whom reported them.

Thanks,

Chuck
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 07:09 AM
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To No Fly Zone and anyone else that was offended by my statement: "not wanting to hear the excuses" offended, please except my appology! I can certainly be short sighted at times and this was one of those times!
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 07:59 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
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I, and probably a few others here, can probably remember making their first transmitter and receiver, (valves, with maybe a transistor output stage), also an escapement or pulsed motor as a 'servo', (good old galloping ghost).
Now you almost need a degree to 'program' your transmitters, and even some ESC's come to that.

People coming into the hobby see beautiful looking scale models for sale, and then forums suggest starting with a box with a wing on top. In todays market that just doesn't appeal to many I'm sure.

Occasionally there are threads started by someone obviously on a very low budget who wants to get flying and even building. Sometimes I suggest starting with a simple chuck glider and learning building and trimming techniques that way. But I'm fairly sure they wont bother.
Simple chuck gliders, (not the toys in a packet), are still flown at competition level, (though perhaps not quite that simple to start with). They can teach a lot.

I too have been a 'balsa basher' since the mid 50's, and still wish I could do a double curvature fuselage like they can in molded foam, but easily and in balsa. Yes I accept it's possible with a lot of block work, and sanding, and sealing, and finishing, (been there and done that in the past),........but, would a newcomer be willing ?

The saddest threads I feel are the requests for someone to build a model for them, (probably a ARTF), as they don't have the time.
Wonder how they will find the time to learn to fly ?. But then they probably think flying is as easy as buying, "well kids do it.....how hard can it be"

As for new model builders, there are loads of them here on the forums, especially in the Foamies (Scratchbuilt), some of the more specialized forums, Aerial Photography, SPAD, etc, is just that they may not be using balsa. Just the same as I am no longer using valve radios, .......but the hobby will survive, because of those that want to get involved, not by pushing it on people who don't care.
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 09:09 AM
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Mcminnville, Or USA
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597 Posts
I mainly scratch build from plans or design my own stuff. When I build a plane I know what its made of and how its made and for the most part why it flies the way it flies.

I saw a ARF guy crash his plane......when he went over to pick up the pieces and he made the comment........."hmmmm it has foam core wings." " Well I guess its back to the hobby store to buy another plane."

The plane really doesn't have any true value, its just a toy that can be re-purchased the next day.
When you fly an ARF you have no idea if there are some bad glue joints. Many times the preinstalled versos are some odd brand of unknown quality.

If you buy a ARF and go fly it is very obvious its a ARF with the wild over the top color scheme.

I agree with one poster who mentioned that the lifespan of a Kit plane vs a ARF very much favors the Kit plane.
So when you buy a ARF your basically getting a quick fix and putting your money into a disposable toy with a limited lifespan.

I think people who build there own planes are also more careful about the condition and quality of the equipment inside the plane.

You see these ARF guys complain about how a cheap servo that came preinstalled in the plane stripped out and crashed the plane.
Well maybe they should of made sure the servo was of decent quality before they flew the plane.

You can spot these ARF guys a mile off...........they crash there plane and then laugh there ?ss off.
Ive never seen anyone who spent 100 hours building his plane laugh after it nosed in.

If the day comes when I cant buy a kit.......or cant scratch build something I might consider a ARF..........But not until then I guarantee.
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Last edited by zero2444; Aug 30, 2009 at 09:14 AM. Reason: typo
Old Aug 30, 2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mode One
To No Fly Zone and anyone else that was offended by my statement: "not wanting to hear the excuses" offended, please except my appology! I can certainly be short sighted at times and this was one of those times!
No need really for an apology! Yes, sometimes we are so eager to spread the fun we're having that we forget to realize that one guy's meat is another guy's poison. Plus, let's face it.... most of us builders are a couple sandwiches short of a picnic basket to begin with... LOL

I actually take longer to build one of my foamies than I do to complete and cover a kit from MM or SA! And seeing that you're a machinist, used to working in thousandths of an inch, I have a funny feeling you may just be the same way...

And now if you'll excuse me, I have to redo a dozen sticks that I sanded down to a 31.5 degree angle that should have been a 31.4 degree angle.

Take care,

Chuck
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 09:54 AM
Two left thumbs
Muncie, IN
Joined Sep 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone


... that's why I rail against people whom seek to find ways to turn non balsa builders into builders...
http://web.ku.edu/~edit/whom.html

Quote:
It's elitism at it's finest.
http://englishplus.com/grammar/00000227.htm

You want elitism? You got elitism - of the grammar variety!

I can't agree that balsa builders are born, not made. While some have more talent than others, we all have the ability to learn. Which medium we prefer is unimportant; designing and building are at issue here. Creativity is at issue here. Developing someone's creative interest, whether for building in foam blocks, foam sheets, fiberglass, carbon fiber, balsa, cardboard, or combined methods is what's important.

Former model builder Bert Rutan started building in balsa, then built with balsa-covered foam. He then learned from the sailplane and surfboard guys about fiberglass over foam, and applied that knowledge to two of the most innovative homebuilt airplanes of all time, the VariEze and LongEze. Had he stayed with balsa only, where would he be today?

Geoff
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 10:18 AM
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But to return to what I suspect ModeOne wanted to ask...if you really want to encourage people to build models rather than buying them then you start by yourself building models which are very attractive and which fly spectacularly well. You take them to the club, get information about them published on the Web and in magazines and when anyone asks where they can get one from you explain in some detail how they can get something similar. Many will fall by the wayside at this point saying they don't have the time, the skills or the knowledge (try not to be rude to them, they probably know more about their lives than you do).

O.K. so far but then there's a critical follow-up which often gets missed. If someone shows any interest YOU PERSONALLY will need to give them as much help as possible to find the bits, achieve the skills needed etc. And don't say you don't have time for that. If you were really interested in encouraging building you'd find the time (presumably ).

But it will anyway be an uphill battle. Hardly anyone builds their own cars, televisions, kid's toys, computers, golf clubs etc these days and most people can't see any reason why flying models should be any different. Flying models is the skill they're interested in practising. You'll only meet the odd few who become interested in having models to fly which are different from (better than ?) the ordinary common models that everyone else is flying. These people must be nurtured .

Steve
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 10:20 AM
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Hi Geoff,

So your argument is based on your dislike of my grammar?

Here's the thing; I recognize when I am being baited into lowering myself to that level in an effort to throw a monkey wrench into what I've said.

Sorry to disappoint you, Geoff, but to argue with you over grammar skills would be to lend credibility to what you said.

I might be stupid because I was born at night, Geoff; but not last night.

Chuck
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstick

You'll only meet the odd few who become interested in having models to fly which are different from (better than ?) the ordinary common models that everyone else is flying. These people must be nurtured .

Steve
Hi Steve,

Exactly my sentiments!!! Nurtured is indeed the word!

Chuck
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 10:24 AM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
12,998 Posts
A typical model builder ?

I thought this may ring a bell with some model builders, (not necessarily model aircraft, but all model makers).

Took the dog for a walk this morning, it was raining as usual, (Wales), so took my big brolly, (umbrella), as well.
On the way back the brolly collapsed, a piece of plastic had failed that retained all the spokes, so on arrival back home in the bin it went.

Later.

Out to the bin, fish the brolly out for a good look. Nah, not repairable, .........but wait, those spokes look like they might be useful....one day

So of to the garage, take the brolly to pieces, (those little hinges on the spoke look really neat and useful,....one day , hmmm, the nylon cover looks too good to throw away, better keep that as well, may get used for.....something or other.

In the end, only the main shaft, (too heavy), a piece of broken plastic, and the wooden handle, (glued to the shaft, rats), went back in the bin. The rest into my .....one day ....storage area.

So.

The RTF guy would have just thrown it away, (often not even pick up all the pieces), straight into the nearest bin, (plenty of 'dead' umbrellas even laying at the side of roads).

The 'builder' took everything home, salvaged what 'might' be useful and stored it, only throwing away the unusable.

The moral of the story -


If your a real builder......................................... you have more 'junk' than models.

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Old Aug 30, 2009, 10:36 AM
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LOL.... oh that rings so true!!!!!!!!

Here's an example from real life from me, as well.

Last year, I decided to clean my 3 year old lawnmower in preparation for the summer season.

After noticing a few paint chips, I decided to mask off and paint them. This made the rest of the mower ever so slightly off color though, so it became apparent that the whole deck should be painted. So off came all the linkages, wires, fuel tubing, handles, etc.

Then I decided that the only proper way to do it would be to actually remove the whole motor itself from the deck so that the job would be done "right".

Shortly thereafter, I managed to actually break the crankshaft while trying to remove the motor from the deck. So there I sat, amidst a pile of rubble, with parts scattered everywhere in my garage.

Another two hours, and my lawn was cut immaculately. Because I had to hide all the wreckage from the better half, and sneak down to the hardware store and buy a brand new lawnmower.

Yes, I am indeed a builder...

Chuck
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Old Aug 30, 2009, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoFlyZone
Another two hours, and my lawn was cut immaculately. Because I had to hide all the wreckage from the better half, and sneak down to the hardware store and buy a brand new lawnmower.

Chuck
Thanks for the morning laugh!!!!

andrew
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