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Old Jun 24, 2012, 08:48 PM
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Props's Avatar
United States, AZ, Prescott
Joined May 2011
59 Posts
Sloping is an astounding experience! I was introduced by a couple of proficient guys who were professors that I had. Wow what an eye opener! Again mentoring played an ENORMOUS roll for me getting into it.

It's OK (or better) to:

*be in a minority...... excellence is a minority activity by definition. The road less traveled

*have differing opinions about how to solve an engineering problem from different mentors though I usually do better with ONE mentor at a time. Having "serial mentors" could be a great thing. Maybe one mentor per project airplane or something. Maybe a different mentor for the next project.

*Experiment, be creative, take a risk (slope), experience, modify, design, be unique. wouldn't you say so? just brainstorming here.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 08:30 AM
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Greenland
Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by RCAERO View Post
If builders are on their way out, then so am I. But, I don't believe it. I think there are some reasons why many model flyers don't build; they are not curious about why a plane flys the way it does and they use most of their spare time to get the quick gratification that comes from flying. Also, they don't want to take the time to learn the technology or the craftsmanship it takes to be a good builder.

"I don't have the time" is just a cop-out. If they were interested, they would make the time. So what's the answer? We need to find ways to get youngsters interested in learning about airplanes and flight. The Civil Air Patrol was great at this when I was a kid. Clubs might think about having How-To sessions at their meetings and also classes for members. There are still plenty of us around who would be glad to share our skills and knowledge.

The internet is a great resource for this type of info. Want to know how to get better performance from your plane and your flying skills? Go to www.rcaeronauts.com .
I agree with the substance of this as in 2006, when I retired, I got involved in rc with ARF's. Four years later, I started building Dumas and Trittle models and prefer to build rather than "buy," though at times I still do. As a result, I can now repair almost anything, ARF or kit-built, and my flying is much better, to!
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 10:58 AM
Registered User
Valdosta, GA
Joined May 2006
180 Posts
Here's my current frustration with building.

I would like to start another build project, but would like something that would have performance as good as my 3D planes on low rates. Most kits are older sport and pattern designs that while fun to build, soon lose their appeal. For example, will a Four Star, Ultrasport, or Dirty Bird perform aerobatics as well as my Extreme Flight Extra? Not for me.

I also fly sailplanes. In that arena, there are kits and designs that are state of the art and work with "modern" materials. For example, you can build a Bubble Dancer or even a Supra and have a very competitive plane. You can buy an Oculus kit. But, I am not aware of an equivalent in the aerobatic category.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 12:14 PM
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amherst,nova scotia,canada
Joined Nov 2003
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Arfs in my opinion wil always have comprimises to meet production and cost requirements. The builders have the choices of what to fo unhindered by these factors usually.

This said my understanding is that some arfs are pretty good. I really like the ideal of getting many to participate in a build. There is also a healthy competition involved in that approach. Most importantly in my opinion it gets people on a common course of action or footing if they are lucky.
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Old Jun 25, 2012, 12:50 PM
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Illinois
Joined Sep 2001
25,208 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by efowlerpreston View Post
I would like to start another build project, but would like something that would have performance as good as my 3D planes on low rates. Most kits are older sport and pattern designs that while fun to build, soon lose their appeal. For example, will a Four Star, Ultrasport, or Dirty Bird perform aerobatics as well as my Extreme Flight Extra? Not for me.
Those planes are designed to use their wings to fly. Modern "aerobatics" fly on the prop. There's no comparison. Personally, I find necessary wings far more fun to fly - if I wanted to hover, I'd buy a heli.

Andy
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 12:20 AM
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United States, TX, Houston
Joined Nov 2003
1,486 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by efowlerpreston View Post
Here's my current frustration with building.

I would like to start another build project, but would like something that would have performance as good as my 3D planes on low rates. Most kits are older sport and pattern designs that while fun to build, soon lose their appeal. For example, will a Four Star, Ultrasport, or Dirty Bird perform aerobatics as well as my Extreme Flight Extra? Not for me.

I also fly sailplanes. In that arena, there are kits and designs that are state of the art and work with "modern" materials. For example, you can build a Bubble Dancer or even a Supra and have a very competitive plane. You can buy an Oculus kit. But, I am not aware of an equivalent in the aerobatic category.
The 3D airplane movement has been a relatively recent development. You cant expect 30 year old designs to to perform a flying style that has been around for 15 years. If you look into some more modern kits, you will find some very 3D capable airplanes (Stevens Aero, Mountain Models).
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 08:55 AM
..in a Johnny Cash voice.
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Canada, NS, Beaver Bank
Joined Aug 2010
314 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Those planes are designed to use their wings to fly. Modern "aerobatics" fly on the prop. There's no comparison. Personally, I find necessary wings far more fun to fly - if I wanted to hover, I'd buy a heli. Andy
^^^ YEA! What Andy said. I fly on 30 watts per lb. Woot.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 03:21 PM
Joined Nov 2011
89 Posts
My two cents

How do we bring model building back?

This is an interesting question, indeed. Well for starters I have not read the entire thread, but I have been subscribed from the beginning of my short membership here on RCG. What I have notice, during my relationship with RCG , a lot of people are early middle age and younger. The thread was started by a gentleman, at the time when he was 59 years old and a quick, and I mean brief, look at the followers that have replied to his thread fall in the category of late middle age or older.

When I say category, I mean no offence what so ever, itís just the older guy, married, kids grown, retired, friends moved on, or what have you, are somewhat laid back and discovers themself with more time on their hands. The guy with age in this hobby came from a time when model building was the only option they had and running out purchasing an ARF or BNF wasnít heard of. He had to acquire how to build, there was no other way.

The younger folks here at RCG and Iím talking about the children that still live with mommy and daddy, and there is a lot of them; I can only guess at the percent of them, have got into this hobby the modern way. What I mean, the teenager saw a video of, or someone else flying an RC plane and wanted to have one, mommy to the rescue, went out and acquired one. If youíre the type to be lucky enough to indulge your children, are you going to bring home a box of sticks or an enjoyable shiny new airplane?

Now for the other guy, the one who loves his children just as much as he loves spending time with and teaching them; we will see a young builder born and have great skill compared to the less fortunate undeveloped fellow that probably ends up trying drugs and getting into trouble.

Quickly looking at the present time users here at RCG, shows the most visitors at any given period, at or nearby the FPV related forums and the Foamies (Scratchbuilt) forum. Without opening a whole other can of worms here, for you balsa lovers, are scratch built foamies not consider building a model? Being a FPV guy myself, I favor the durability of a Styrofoam airplane because of all the abuse that comes with FPV flight and not to forget, how easy it is to exchange one. I still get the jiggers when I fly my nitro balsa planes.

Replacing or purchasing a plane for the first time with an ARF is by far the quickest, easiest, and the cheapest way too obtain enjoyment that comes with flight.

My interdiction to RC flight was a sad one. My mother bought me a kit, I had a severely broken arm and she thought this would give me something to do while I was laid up. I spent all my time on this plane and when ready to fly, I search for a guy to teach me how. On maiden day, he tested and trimmed the plane, getting ready for me to have a go. We refueled the plane, and I gave it a try. During the flight the RX battery died and the plane slammed into a tree. With that discouraging maiden day and lack of funds, I gave up on RC flight. My return to the hobby with my ARF on maiden day smashed into the ground and was badly damage, but not my feelings. I quickly hot glued the Styrofoam back together, and gave another try.

Iím now 32 years old, working and running a small commercial fishing business, paying for a home, have two dogs, two cats, grow a garden, raising 30 chickens, 10 turkeys annually, and maintain a small property. I do all my own repairs to the boat, vehicles, home and look after the other things on the honey dew list. I love to go fishing, hunting, and make wine. Last year I was bit by the RC bug again and found I have a new addiction to the RCGroups forum. Letís not forget trying to keep a happy, healthy nine year relationship with my younger girlfriend, which is always on a need to go bases, ALL the time. With my busy life style, itís hard to find time to build a model, but I still try.

I feel model building is fading out because of how busy oneís life really is. Itís so easy to buy and fly, now a day, and with so little spare time that someone has, it just makes sense to go flying, and that is why we are in this hobby, isnít it, whether we build a masterpiece or fly a piece of foam glued together.

How do we bring model building back? Do nothing, itís not our choice how someone lives there life and what accomplishments one archives. All one really can do is continue to build for himself and share his wisdom with the attracted. Do not forget to post here on RCG so you skill and experience will last a life time and one day a new found builder can access a fortune of information at his fingertips. What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; while what we have done for others and society remains and is immortal.

One day when the majority of RCG present day younger users become experienced, grow older and wiser, the hustle and bustle of life slows down, and the love for this hobby still remains, maybe we will find a new explosion of model builders.

While Iím still on my quest of growing older and wiser, I have realised that people become upset over someoneís opinion. Just remember this post contains only one manís opinion and opinions are a lot like holes, everybody has one.
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Last edited by scallopking; Jun 26, 2012 at 03:29 PM.
Old Jun 26, 2012, 04:09 PM
Balsa builder and balsa basher
RC Trainer plane's Avatar
Joined Apr 2012
683 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by scallopking View Post
How do we bring model building back?

This is an interesting question, indeed. Well for starters I have not read the entire thread, but I have been subscribed from the beginning of my short membership here on RCG. What I have notice, during my relationship with RCG , a lot of people are early middle age and younger. The thread was started by a gentleman, at the time when he was 59 years old and a quick, and I mean brief, look at the followers that have replied to his thread fall in the category of late middle age or older.

When I say category, I mean no offence what so ever, itís just the older guy, married, kids grown, retired, friends moved on, or what have you, are somewhat laid back and discovers themself with more time on their hands. The guy with age in this hobby came from a time when model building was the only option they had and running out purchasing an ARF or BNF wasnít heard of. He had to acquire how to build, there was no other way.

The younger folks here at RCG and Iím talking about the children that still live with mommy and daddy, and there is a lot of them; I can only guess at the percent of them, have got into this hobby the modern way. What I mean, the teenager saw a video of, or someone else flying an RC plane and wanted to have one, mommy to the rescue, went out and acquired one. If youíre the type to be lucky enough to indulge your children, are you going to bring home a box of sticks or an enjoyable shiny new airplane?

Now for the other guy, the one who loves his children just as much as he loves spending time with and teaching them; we will see a young builder born and have great skill compared to the less fortunate undeveloped fellow that probably ends up trying drugs and getting into trouble.

Quickly looking at the present time users here at RCG, shows the most visitors at any given period, at or nearby the FPV related forums and the Foamies (Scratchbuilt) forum. Without opening a whole other can of worms here, for you balsa lovers, are scratch built foamies not consider building a model? Being a FPV guy myself, I favor the durability of a Styrofoam airplane because of all the abuse that comes with FPV flight and not to forget, how easy it is to exchange one. I still get the jiggers when I fly my nitro balsa planes.

Replacing or purchasing a plane for the first time with an ARF is by far the quickest, easiest, and the cheapest way too obtain enjoyment that comes with flight.

My interdiction to RC flight was a sad one. My mother bought me a kit, I had a severely broken arm and she thought this would give me something to do while I was laid up. I spent all my time on this plane and when ready to fly, I search for a guy to teach me how. On maiden day, he tested and trimmed the plane, getting ready for me to have a go. We refueled the plane, and I gave it a try. During the flight the RX battery died and the plane slammed into a tree. With that discouraging maiden day and lack of funds, I gave up on RC flight. My return to the hobby with my ARF on maiden day smashed into the ground and was badly damage, but not my feelings. I quickly hot glued the Styrofoam back together, and gave another try.

Iím now 32 years old, working and running a small commercial fishing business, paying for a home, have two dogs, two cats, grow a garden, raising 30 chickens, 10 turkeys annually, and maintain a small property. I do all my own repairs to the boat, vehicles, home and look after the other things on the honey dew list. I love to go fishing, hunting, and make wine. Last year I was bit by the RC bug again and found I have a new addiction to the RCGroups forum. Letís not forget trying to keep a happy, healthy nine year relationship with my younger girlfriend, which is always on a need to go bases, ALL the time. With my busy life style, itís hard to find time to build a model, but I still try.

I feel model building is fading out because of how busy oneís life really is. Itís so easy to buy and fly, now a day, and with so little spare time that someone has, it just makes sense to go flying, and that is why we are in this hobby, isnít it, whether we build a masterpiece or fly a piece of foam glued together.

How do we bring model building back? Do nothing, itís not our choice how someone lives there life and what accomplishments one archives. All one really can do is continue to build for himself and share his wisdom with the attracted. Do not forget to post here on RCG so you skill and experience will last a life time and one day a new found builder can access a fortune of information at his fingertips. What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; while what we have done for others and society remains and is immortal.

One day when the majority of RCG present day younger users become experienced, grow older and wiser, the hustle and bustle of life slows down, and the love for this hobby still remains, maybe we will find a new explosion of model builders.

While Iím still on my quest of growing older and wiser, I have realised that people become upset over someoneís opinion. Just remember this post contains only one manís opinion and opinions are a lot like holes, everybody has one.
Well put and i agree with most of what you say ( if not all). I'm 14 and have joined the hobby in an unlikely story. I was merely looking through youtube when i came across an RC Plane FPV video and was inspired. I know its not the greatest story but hey it's one. To be honest i was 12 when i first started getting intrigued by the RC hobby, my first venture started when on my birthday when i was kindly presented with a nitro RC car for my birthday ( when i saw presented with a car i mean nagged for months for a car). Anyway it arrived new straight out of China in a box which i quickly whipped open. After around a day of intense thought and "how to do" youtube videos i couldn't get it to move or even start for that matter. Since it's sat in my garage gathering dust.

After my car was well and truely screwed over i took a break from the RC Car ( so to say) and started on planes. I knew after the car that my Dad was never going to get me a plane so at school i attempted building one. After 3 months of research and lunchtimes i was no where at all. I had two wings made of ply ( now i know is way to heavy) and were wonky. I eventually gave that up and a year later decided to attempt to build another one again from ply but instead a 50" aerobatic Cap 232. I now know this would never would of worked because i didn't have have a clue how to fly at all and would've crashed it straight away ( if it flew that is ).

Next year which is this current year i've embarked on a new Rc plane build. This time i've wised up. I'm building it out of balsa, at home and a trainer. I've spent countless hours researching how to build planes and drawing up plans and hopefully it'll work. The build is in my blog by the way .

The whole point of this is that so many people of my age would get dishearted and leave the hobby. I've never been given anything to do with RC and was never forced into the hobby either by a parent whos into it. I sold my PS3 to fund my build and got my stuff by picking myself up and going to my LHS. I know if i crash it ( more like when) then i'll rebuild it again no matter how long it takes.
I Got into the hobby by RCModel Reviews videos by Bruce and thought i could do that. What i'm trying to get at is, if i went to school and told my freinds that i'm building an RC plane which has taken me months and can't play with them any more on the weekends because i sold my PS3, they'd look at me like i'm an idiot. However If they were given a kit plane for christmas they wouldn't touch it but if they were given the same plane but as a RTF version it would be their favourite thing ever.

Here's my solution, in my school we have DT classes which are really boring and you only make say a box or on the odd occasion a chair or something. I think that everybody should get a set of plans and the neccesary wood to do so and attempt to build a basic plane. After that they can be supplied with the neccesary stuff to kit it out and after that things like telementry and FPV. I feel this would be a lot more benefitial and interesting and maybe kids would look forward to the end product but know that they could only get there by building the plane. On top of the fact that you get a plane you also get the oppurtunity to lear advanced woodworking skills and how to problem solve.

anyway thats my opinion and view

my build is in my blog
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 04:24 PM
Crikey never leave beer behind
steve wenban's Avatar
Mt Annan Sydney Australia
Joined Dec 2003
23,433 Posts
Read your blog, you have done very well . A few basic errors but lessons learned for the next one .Keep at it everything you do is experience gained. Good luck with your flight training and seek out an instructor,which you probably already have.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 04:46 PM
Joined Nov 2011
89 Posts
Quote:
What i'm trying to get at is, if i went to school and told my freinds that i'm building an RC plane which has taken me months and can't play with them any more on the weekends because i sold my PS3, they'd look at me like i'm an idiot. However If they were given a kit plane for christmas they wouldn't touch it but if they were given the same plane but as a RTF version it would be their favourite thing ever.
RC Trainer, for your age, the dedication, desire and interest and how to achieve your goals, put you in the minority of youths today. I wish you luck, and I think youíre on the right track in life.
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 05:09 PM
Balsa builder and balsa basher
RC Trainer plane's Avatar
Joined Apr 2012
683 Posts
thanks both of you really appreciate the complements . Also yes i'm joining a club and they have a dedicated trainer there fortunately. They only real problem is that every weekend i have football but i'm sure some things can be arranged. i.e RC plane flying > football
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Old Jun 26, 2012, 05:54 PM
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United States, VA, Virginia Beach
Joined Feb 2012
5,480 Posts
RCTp your plane will fly. I've been following the build since you started it. With the time, patience and care you are putting into building it, you are going to succeed.

I also think scallopking is right about the ease of access with them today. I've built balsa kits when I first got into the hobby. I'm currently bashing out foam planes. They are fun and go together rather quickly.

No matter what someone chooses to build in or with the point is that they are building. I don't ever think building will die out entirely.
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 08:55 AM
The wheels touch down FIRST??
BJ64's Avatar
Australia, VIC, Melbourne
Joined Jun 2009
25,373 Posts
No we're getting somewhere with this discussion.

Listen to the 'young-un'...for he is the future of this whole 'building' thing.

Times have changed - for so many different reasons.

If a scratch-build, a foamie, an ARF or an RTF gets someone into flying, does it really matter which one it is?

IMHO, first you have to come through the door - then you have somewhere to go. Whatever it takes.

It doesn't matter what hobby or sport you look at, there's always first-timers that will give it a bash once... then never come back. Why? Too hard... too expensive...not enough buzz. They're a few things that spring to mind.

And that's why I keep harping on about losing that 'us and them' stigma. It really doesn't matter what someone fly's or how they enter the hobby - the important part is that they have taken the first step.

If nothing else, the Hobby Kings etc. of this world today have brought the hobby into a new level of affordability and huge range of choice. Once someone realises that they can fly, and it doesn't cost them an arm and a leg, they just may want to stick around for a while.

For the younger generation these days, you only have to look around to realise something that was 'nerdy' yesterday can be tomorrows craze. By keeping it fresh, exciting, challenging & rewarding, and most of all - affordable - RC flying might just get the injection of new enthusiasm it probably needs to see it continue to grow and flourish.

Those that 'click' with it will find out soon enough that flying means crashing somewhere along the line. And crashing means fixing if you want to go again with what you have already got.

Enter the 'builder'. Those with the knowledge and wisdom to fix a broken Bird and get it back up again. Round 2. Those whom the 'n00bie' can turn to for answers on how swap a snapped prop...fix a busted fuselage... mend a broken wing.

Skills no so easy to do if you don't know how. Things once learned can be repeated, and passed on.

For me, it's not so much about worrying how to get people back to building - it's about keeping the ones who have given flying a try. The days of building being the only entrance into RC flying are long gone. Our current kids demand things that keep them immersed in whatever they are doing.

'Can'... 'Will'...'Do'... are much more powerful options than Can't...Might...Won't...

In any hobby, there's usually a percentage of those who just like get on with the participation side of things - then there's those who like to tinker and 'roll their own'. Over time, there's a certain amount of 'participators' (purely flyers) who slowly convert to 'tinkerers' (builders). And it doesn't take all that much more than some encouragement from those with the 'nouse' to transfer their skills to those with the urge to learn more.

Simple math suggests that the more participators you have to start with, the more tinkerers you'll end up with...

BJ

PS - RC T-plane - what an excellent idea! A 'woodwork' or 'shop' class at school banding together to make something that actually flies What kid wouldn't want to be involved in something as cool as that? The resistors & transistors egg-heads could be part of the 'RC' side of things... woodworkers and plastics the airframe and coverings... auto boys the powerplant... the list involves many talents for the end of term project. Beats the hell out of making something... putting two grooves in it, and calling it an 'ashtray' (Bill Cosby)
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 10:15 AM
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AA5BY's Avatar
East Texas
Joined Aug 2007
1,387 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Props View Post
When I was a boy my father and foster father were both aerospace engineers. they tried to teach me about how to design and manufacture quality.

One of the builders on this forum commented about (and I paraphrase) the ARF people

" they don't want to take the time to learn the technology or the craftsmanship it takes to be a good builder.

"I don't have the time" is just a cop-out. If they were interested, they would make the time."

He is right on. Learning to build balsa structures that are light, strong and function together in flight has taught me how to understand and deal with complex real world design issues of significant gravity. So gratifying to have the skills I learned to design and fabricate RC solutions to spill over into solving all kinds of other engineering challenges, that I know now this would have been reason enough.

But the RC modeler needs an "RC" reason to design and build because it requires a dedication and devotion to skills that take time to acquire. So why would he?

Would it be fair to say that you can explore of much wider variety of aircraft if you have more building skills? I think so, yes.

Is it true (AND THIS WAS THE BIG MOTIVATOR FOR ME) that you CAN BUILD A BETTER AIRPLANE THAN YOU CAN ARF? Is that true? Im seriously asking you guys this question: Can you BUILD a better airplane than you can buy prebuilt?
One answer to that question is that some need a pastime and ARFs simply build too fast. Some need a creative expression and ARFs simply don't offer much of that. Some enjoy the artistry of hand work. Some enjoy the artistry of design challenges. The list could go on.

I'm currently flying my first original design and build. There was a much greater excitement in the build than ever before. Just the awareness that if this thing is going to fly well, or even fly at all... that ones best effort is needed.
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