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Old Feb 22, 2012, 07:27 PM
ARFs Are Me
TomCrump's Avatar
Traverse City, Michigan
Joined Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eflightray View Post
Please explain 'oxymoron' in relation to these -

Hanger 9 Giant Scale ARF
Inaccurate outlines. Plastic covering. Rivet and panel line detail.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 12:51 AM
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seeingeyegod's Avatar
United States, OR, Portland
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Originally Posted by Thermalin View Post
ARF buyers generally arent builders (I did say "genereally") and plans would just increas the cost. Also when they crash (the wooden ones), if you have any building experience, you have the sizes and parts right in front of you. The MOKI radails are big dollar ones.
Ah ok, I didn't know they made regular glow engine too!
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 06:28 AM
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United States, MD, Elkton
Joined Oct 2011
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oxymoron

Uh oh !
Maybe I'm gonna have a bad day,but,if you buy an arf,and you break it,why would you want to FIX it? You can just buy an ARF part to repair it.
oxymoron;scratch build repair parts for an arf.

Here's the bad day part....I thought plans were for BUILDERS.and instruction books were for BUYERS...if there's 12 parts in the Barf box...sorry..ARF box...
you only need INSTRUCTIONS to assemble it.But if there are 300 parts,you need some PLANS,man.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 09:47 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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If BARFMakers put plans in with their 'products', it would either cut the profits or increase the price, thus possibly moving the product into a different price point.

There's also a slender chance that the consumer would look at his bent product, glance at the plan, think 'this is a load of garbage' and, instead of buying another newer, more exciting product, turn to learning how to be an aeromodeller who can create far better model aircraft.

Which would also negate the need for a lot of marketing buzzwords and, hopefully, a lot of marketeers...

D
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 04:54 AM
ARFs Are Me
TomCrump's Avatar
Traverse City, Michigan
Joined Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seeingeyegod View Post
Ah ok, I didn't know they made regular glow engine too!
Actually, they don't

It's something that I do not completely understand, but there are two, independent companies, that manufacture under the name, Moki.

The Moki in that Pitts, was manufactured by a company totally seperate from the Moki that manufactures radials.

Weird, but true.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 10:50 AM
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Grand Rapids, MI
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Originally Posted by Dereck View Post
If BARFMakers put plans in with their 'products', it would either cut the profits or increase the price, thus possibly moving the product into a different price point.

There's also a slender chance that the consumer would look at his bent product, glance at the plan, think 'this is a load of garbage' and, instead of buying another newer, more exciting product, turn to learning how to be an aeromodeller who can create far better model aircraft.

Which would also negate the need for a lot of marketing buzzwords and, hopefully, a lot of marketeers...

D
I can't believe that printing a set of plans for them would add THAT much to the end retail price. Even if they don't include them in the box, it would be nice if they made them available for purchase online with their replacement parts.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 11:56 AM
ARFs Are Me
TomCrump's Avatar
Traverse City, Michigan
Joined Dec 2005
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I doubt that there are plans. My guess is that these things are produced in CAD, and sent to the manufacturer.

If ARF sellers sold plans, they would eliminate the "need" for replacement parts. Replacement parts are a large part of their business.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 01:40 PM
Visitor from Reality
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Originally Posted by Hornetnz View Post
I can't believe that printing a set of plans for them would add THAT much to the end retail price. Even if they don't include them in the box, it would be nice if they made them available for purchase online with their replacement parts.
Have you noticed how 'spares' in any area of 'products' are getting thin on the ground?

The sweatshops that turn out stuff in Ch-u-no-where are geared to producing a completed 'product'. Spares would require whole new production lines, re-organising packaging and shipping and generally increasing the cost of a 'factory'.

We're moving to a scenario where if something breaks, it is tossed and replaced, not fixed. That's in the big world too, not just in a sideline industry making model aircraft.

Maybe give it a few years, Chinese workers win some kind of reasonable standards and their exports escalate in cost - then maybe when the cost of a model aircraft kit drops below that of a similar BARF, we old ph&rts will be replaced by a few who decide they can do better themselves and take on a challenge.

As society moves to where seemingly intelligent people queue up all night outside a store to buy the latest model of a telephone, this could take a while...

D
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCrump View Post
I doubt that there are plans. My guess is that these things are produced in CAD, and sent to the manufacturer.

If ARF sellers sold plans, they would eliminate the "need" for replacement parts. Replacement parts are a large part of their business.
Granted, which is why I suggested they offer the plans when they discontinue the ARF.
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Old Feb 24, 2012, 07:50 PM
Richard Cox
Thousand Oaks, CA
Joined Dec 2003
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Most of the Chinese manufacturers barely make instructions, no way they could produce anything like plans.

This same argument is active in the Electronic hobbyist are. I grew up with models and electronics. Made several Heathkits, and built gadgets from planes in magazines.
I got an engineering degree, and now design and build electronic stuff for a living.

It is almost impossible to find a technician or engineering graduate who ever build anything.

Could be why we are losing our manufacturing jobs.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 05:39 AM
ARFs Are Me
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Traverse City, Michigan
Joined Dec 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hornetnz View Post
Granted, which is why I suggested they offer the plans when they discontinue the ARF.
My point is, that if ARF manufacturers sold plans, it would be easy to fix their models. They don't want you to fix anything. They want you to BUY something new.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 12:00 PM
Visitor from Reality
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomCrump View Post
My point is, that if ARF manufacturers sold plans, it would be easy to fix their models. They don't want you to fix anything. They want you to BUY something new.
Having peered into the odd BARF, it strikes me that supplying spares would be a nightmare, unless you're talking fuselages, wings and tailplanes. There's as much art as effective structure involved in some of them - which not only looks good in magalogue style 'reviews' but ensures when the buyer whacks them down hard, they bust up really good and thus promote the buying of new products rather than repairs.

Without wishing to sound grandiose, I can make a far stronger former from strip balsa using a knife, a few pins and a blob or six of PVA glue than these artistically laser cut parts.

But that's not as marketable as a BARF by a long way.

From what I see these days, there's only Sig who have stuck to applying laser cutting to good, solid aeromodelling specific engineering vice sticking dozens of twee looking, but fragile, cheap liteply parts together...

D
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 12:24 PM
An itch?. Scratch build.
eflightray's Avatar
South Wales U.K.
Joined Mar 2003
13,188 Posts
Some of you guys come across as so biased against ARFs that I'm not surprised that few would want try and build.
You would probably criticize just about everything anyone makes as not being as perfect and scale like, as you obviously make.

Model aircraft are just that, model aircraft.

If you want to fly them it's not that important how perfectly scale they are in the sky.

If you want to sit an admire them as museum quality scale models they you have built by hand, that's perfectly Ok by me, I wont criticize you.
But I may question why they are often flown at unrealistic speeds for 'scale' models.

Boy this thread reminds me more and more like LTUP. A very good reason to keep away.

I'll stick to trying to help anyone in the electric forums, be it ARF, RTF, or scratch built.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 12:59 PM
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walterboro s.c.u.s.a
Joined Jun 2004
755 Posts
I have been looking at the Tower Hobbies website and the Horizon hobbies site.Most specifically the arf airplane catagory.It seems like most of the attractive airplanes have the engines mounted upside down, and and the engines are are almost comepletley covered with an engine cowl.This makes them really appealing to a newbie getting into model aviation.
But it can make it frustrating for the new guy.Here is what I see.First, the engine mounted inverted."This is only in the two stroke engine catagory".This way of mounting a two stroker can make it difficult to tune compared to the upright or side mount position.This makes the new guy get confused and frustrated.Next.An engine inside a cowl sometimes makes things like getting at the needle valve's,pin holes in the fuel lines,loose head bolt's etc.difficult to get at.
Now the new guy gets agitated because he has just driven a long distance to the feild and spent hours assembling the r-plane.Now he has to stop, and remove the muffler just to get the cowling off to see what is wrong.With airplanes like the Ugly Sticks,Uproar,Dazzlers etc.
you can mount the engine any which way you like, and they don't have a cowl covering the engine. Which buy the way can sometimes over heat engines,and along with all the above mentioned, he is now thinking electrics might be the way to go.I am just saying I see most of the 40 to 60 sized rc airplanes that they are selling with engines mounted the way I have described, is all wrong for a new guy.And I still see new guys buying them because they look cool.I know it's their choice,but I have been around this hobby for ages.They just did not make that many 40-60 sized airplanes with the engines mounted the way I have described.And all the flashy looking airplanes, along with snazzy advertising wasn't there either.Most of the airplanes I fly are in the 40-60 sized range.I won't buy an airplane that has to have an inverted engine configuration.Nor will I put a cowl around an engine.Again> this is only for 2-strokers.Some people don't have the patience to tune a glow or gas engine .It is really simple if you have complete,quik,easy to get to, adjustments on the engine.

Col. jimmy.p.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 01:49 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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Yes, we ancient ones whose main aim is to build something a little different/better than the last model are a fading breed. But if there's any around who will denigrate a new builder's early attempts, I must have missed them...

We're aeromodellers.

Guys who decide to buy a new hobby and then buy whatever new products they are sold are a different breed. Sure, some may stick around a while as opposed to buying a jetski, golfsticks, bagpipes or whatever they're sold on from the next 'Product Magalogue' they read on their cellphone, but aeromodellers they ain't.

However, they are more popular with sales and marketing than someone who spends a lot more time selecting sheets of balsa than spending.

Sorry if that sounds biased. It's what they are.

Aeromodelling will keep going, I suspect. There'll always be the odd few, and that's all we've been for years in reality, who want to tinker, build, move on and apply learned skills to a hobby. Some might even figure out to start an inverted glow engine .

I wouldn't say that I won't help a BARFer straighten out their newly bought product that isn't playing ball because the chinglish instructions were c%&p, even if they could read instructions that didn't come on a iSpend app. But I will admit to being thankful that I've seldom had to go to my club flying patch on Sundays for years, being able to get my flying fix mid-week...

D
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