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Old Oct 27, 2009, 03:26 PM
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Hampshire, UK
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I'd say yes. Like Germany, France has one of the longest track records at indoor aerobatics and it no doubt will be a superb event.

Located near Paris which is arguably well worth a visit in itself

Dave
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 05:05 PM
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F3P Maneouvres

At the beginnig of your thread I've read about your complains of the 3P rules.
They are not given by a mysterious master and are not carved in stone forever.
Every country can send proposals to the CIAM subcommittee of the FAI.
The maneouvres and rules are in constant flow to make F3N better and as it is a preliminary class there are ups and downs. But everybody can help in making the class better.
As you have already a member of the CIAM in your jury at the IITOP, I would suggest to talk to him how to make proposals to the rules.
But you have to do it quickly, because the next subcommittee meeting is at the begin of 2010.

CU Stephan
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 06:24 PM
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The French F3p committee wrote 2 new schedule propositions. ASAP I will see you.

In 2008, the French F3p committee wrote 2 propositions but the CIAM subcommittee of the FAI judged not enough ambitious and preferred the currently schedules.

Unfortunately Mr Pignot (French member of the CIAM) didn't win the headquarters of the aerobatic CIAM subcommittee. The man who wrote the currently schedules had be preferred...

In the first propositions of the man who wrote the currently schedules there had not one spin but two spin !
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StephanSchrade View Post
...
The maneouvres and rules are in constant flow to make F3N better and as it is a preliminary class there are ups and downs. But everybody can help in making the class better.
As you have already a member of the CIAM in your jury at the IITOP, I would suggest to talk to him how to make proposals to the rules.
But you have to do it quickly, because the next subcommittee meeting is at the begin of 2010.

CU Stephan
Hi Stephan,

you probably meant F3P and not F3N. F3P is no longer a preliminary class either. The current FAI F3P-AP and F3P-AF schedules have been the reason of many controverse discussions right from the beginning:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=910648

F3P models don't really spin and many countries don't have halls high enough (or obstacle free enough) for the new schedules.

At the first big International Indoor competition in Mons/Belgium, top European Indoor pilots sat together and modified the schedules to make them flyable and many countries have adopted those changes, or created different schedules.

Unfortunately the new schedules are for 2009 and 2010, so I don't expect any changes for next year. As soon as we have FAI schedules again, which can be flown without problems in the halls we have, I will be first to adopt them.

Jürgen
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 03:45 AM
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@Jürgen:
Sorry, of course I meant F3P.
Yes, I know about the problems and all the discussions going on.

I only wanted to tell, that we all should do our best to make this class better and if more and more countries are working on this, it'll work.

Unfortunately as you know this (rules, maneouvres) didn't work very well in Germany so far. But I hope we all can be better in the future.

CU Stephan
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 06:29 AM
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F3P schedules French proposals

The spin is a problem but the big problem with the currently schedules are the transitions in height between two figures.
If you are a beam or a handbaskest the schedules are impossible.

Here the new French proposals:
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 04:11 PM
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Paris, FRANCE
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Up.

The “competition infos” tab and the “register / inscription” tab have been updated.
More info here: http://iitop.free.fr/
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolas pietu View Post
The spin is a problem but the big problem with the currently schedules are the transitions in height between two figures.
If you are a beam or a handbaskest the schedules are impossible.

Here the new French proposals:
Hi Nicolas,

what transitions in height between figures are you referring to? We changed some figures of the FAI schedules to avoid any interference with obstacles at the ceiling.

Could you further describe figures 7, 11 and 12 in F3P-AP and 11 in F3P-AF?

I am personally not a fan of torque rolls in both directions. I know it is doable, provided you have ailerons in the slipstream of the prop, but is against the whole idea of what "torque-rolling" actually means.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 02:50 PM
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I see that the pattern maneuver schedules for indoor F3P in Europe are well documented and discussed. I am curious if there is a document that defines the indoor AM task in similar detail. Also, is there a separate official AM guideline for outdoor flying?

Thanks, Todd
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 03:12 PM
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ftp://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc4/...obatics_09.pdf

Describes the current official F3P-AP & AF schedules as well as AM.

Closest thing to AM outdoors will be the WAG classes F6A & F6B

ftp://www.fai.org/sporting_code/sc4/...otional_09.pdf

Dave
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 03:18 PM
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Thank you! I can see that there will always be room for some controversy, but at least there is a score sheet provided that quantifies the aspects of a good flight, so that each competitor can see where they need to improve.
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Last edited by straightedge_; Nov 17, 2009 at 03:58 PM. Reason: ...after reading through the documents
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Old Nov 17, 2009, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
...We changed some figures of the FAI schedules to avoid any interference with obstacles at the ceiling.
With the currently schedules the interferences with obstacles at the ceiling are the major problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Could you further describe figures 7, 11 and 12 in F3P-AP and 11 in F3P-AF?
F3P-AP
7: Top Hat in Horizontal Knife-Edge Flight
11: Shark fin
12: Torque Rolls wiht 4-Point-roll

F3P-AF
11: Humptybump Knife-Edge Flight

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I am personally not a fan of torque rolls in both directions. I know it is doable, provided you have ailerons in the slipstream of the prop, but is against the whole idea of what "torque-rolling" actually means.

Jürgen
My opinion is a torque rolls is nice figures in F3P. Maybe the word "Torque rolls" is not good because we can turn in opposite direction of torque but it's a interesting manoeuvre.


Regards,
Nicolas PIETU
http://iitop.free.fr/
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Old Nov 18, 2009, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straightedge_ View Post
...
Also, is there a separate official AM guideline for outdoor flying?
...
Outdoor the class is actually called Artistic Aerobatics, or F6A, but the judging criteria are very similar.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 18, 2009, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicolas pietu View Post
...
F3P-AP
7: Top Hat in Horizontal Knife-Edge Flight
11: Shark fin
12: Torque Rolls wiht 4-Point-roll

F3P-AF
11: Humptybump Knife-Edge Flight
...
Hi Nicolas,

Ok, that's what I thought, but what makes you think, that the new schedules would start in September 2010?

Normally, FAI schedules are linked to the calendar year, i.e. the current schedules are valid for 2009 and 2010. New schedules would start 01.01.2011.

Opposite to most other model flying activities the Indoor Season is usually from October to March, a fact that may need to be considered by the FAI.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 18, 2009, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Outdoor the class is actually called Artistic Aerobatics, or F6A, but the judging criteria are very similar.

Jürgen
Thanks. Is the FAI score sheet for each flyer available to see by everyone after each round or after the contest? I was very impressed at how the judging guidelines are documented and especially that there's a ready to use score sheet.
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