Slingsby T12 Gull Build - Page 3

Fred China · Sep 10, 2009, 09:44 PM

Phillip
Your third paragraph says it all. If you go back to the third set of photos and check out no. 2 "Covering of wing root will be tricky" you can see the framework.
The plywood I buy is 12"x48" and there are almost two complete sheets aft of the balance point. They weigh about 10oz. each so that is a minimum of 18 oz. which means I am going to need about another pound of ballast up front and I have almost 2 pounds there now

Fred

philkiteflyer · Sep 10, 2009, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred China

Phillip
Your third paragraph says it all. If you go back to the third set of photos and check out no. 2 "Covering of wing root will be tricky" you can see the framework.
The plywood I buy is 12"x48" and there are almost two complete sheets aft of the balance point. They weigh about 10oz. each so that is a minimum of 18 oz. which means I am going to need about another pound of ballast up front and I have almost 2 pounds there now

Fred

Understood.

I realise any building project is a series of choices by the builder, can you elaborate your reasons for ply over balsa for the rear skinning? You might have reduced the amount of lead you have to use to get balance. I'm not being critical, I'm just trying to understand the way different builders choose to use different materials, ie durability, local flying conditions, availabililty of materials, cost ? ? and so on. Do you get what I'm trying to say? ?

Phillip C

Fred China · Sep 11, 2009, 01:39 AM

Phillip

Ply is not over balsa. The only balsa fill in is between the forward two formers at the nose. For the rest of the fuselage there is nothing behind the plywood except air.
Anyway, I tend to build heavy.

Fred

philkiteflyer · Sep 11, 2009, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred China

Phillip

Ply is not over balsa. The only balsa fill in is between the forward two formers at the nose. For the rest of the fuselage there is nothing behind the plywood except air.
Anyway, I tend to build heavy.

Fred

Oops . . sorry I didn't make that very clear, I mean Ply INSTEAD of balsa.

Phillip C

mmartin55 · Sep 11, 2009, 09:21 AM

Fred,
Sorry if I missed it earlier in this discussion but where do you find your plywood for covering and what type is it. I would like to find a source for .5, 1, 2, 3mm mahagany such as might have been used on a 1937 ship like the Ross Stephens RS-1. If not available, do you have any tips for staining aircraft ply in those thicknesses as well as a source for the thin plywood?

Great work on your Slingsby!
Tom

Fred China · Sep 11, 2009, 02:16 PM

Phillip

I hate painting so the majority of my gliders are finished by staining and varnishing with water base Varathane gloss diamond wood finish. This of course would show a complete change from birch ply to balsa. Also without some kind of covering such as glass cloth, I don't think balsa strong enough.
Plywood is actually quite easy to apply, is strong and looks good and it's the way the originals were built.

Fred

Fred China · Sep 11, 2009, 02:39 PM

Tom

I have no SPECIAL source for plywood. The plywood I use is birch ply which I pay through the nose for at the local hobby shop until the price went a third more than a mail order hobby shop in Alberta. It costs me about $200.00 for plywood per glider and it's almost the most expensive item for each glider. The largest size I can get is 12"x 48"
The stain I use is an Aniline Wood Stain water soluable powder which I purchase from Lee Valley Tools Ltd. It is mixed with warm water and can be varied in shade by how much powder and water you use. The colour I use is called "Golden Antique Pine" and it's very easy to use.
I don't know whether you have Lee Valley in the US but you should have. They are a marvelous woodworkers shop.

Fred

Fred China · Sep 11, 2009, 02:46 PM

Tom

Just another word. The stain package has a sticker on it saying MADE IN USA so I assume you can buy it there.

Fred

mmartin55 · Sep 12, 2009, 12:25 AM

Thanks Fred, I've used aniline dyes in water for expensive custom white oak and pine floors and for antique reproduction furniture. Its wonderful stuff if you don't mind dying your hands and having stain running down your to your elbows! We finished with three coats of shellac hand sanded and then water based polyurethane followed by hand rubbed wax.

Two more questions:
1. Does this color approximate the look of vintage craft?
(I assume they used a marine grade of mahogany plywood)

and 2. Are you finding non-aircraft spruce in .5, 1 and 1.5mm thicknesses?

Thanks for your help,
Tom

Fred China · Sep 12, 2009, 12:54 AM

Tom
I think it does. You might have seen photos of my Cimbora. That colour is almost a perfect match with the full size. It's not a mahogany colour however, but I imagine you can get that in an aniline stain.

We grow the stuff here but it is almost an unknown item. A number of years ago we had a homebuild aircraft shop that stocked it and you could pick it over for what you wanted. They moved and I don't know where they are now. I was able to get a lousy piece of aircraft spruce a few years ago from out of town which I have used up. I now go to the local lumber yard and try to find a close, clear grained 2x4 or 2x6 of fir or what they call spruce. I have been lucky with fir in both sizes and find it perfectly adequate for what I need. I rip it on my table saw for spars and longerons but not the small sizes you are asking about.

Fred

Fred China · Sep 13, 2009, 04:58 PM

Sheeting of fuselage all done. Now I can move on to other things.

I know it may seem ridiculous but that little square wood block is indispensable to me when covering with plywood. It allows me to put pressure on a panel anywhere to make sure it is stuck to the framework with the contact cement. It is square on four sides and I also use it when building wings. Ribs at 90 degrees etc.

I'm putting the words first this time because I know I won't get them under the photos.

Fred

SZD16 · Sep 13, 2009, 08:00 PM

Fred,
Here is where you put the words in to show up under the pictures.

SPasierb · Sep 13, 2009, 08:02 PM

And after you add the words, be sure you scroll to the bottom of the page and click "save changes" BEFORE you click "close this window."

Thanks so much for this FANTASTIC thread. The fuselage is a work of art!

Steve

philkiteflyer · Sep 13, 2009, 09:40 PM

"Nice fuse" veeerryyy sexy.

Can you tell us what all the holes (5) are in the wing root? Are you going to put a locator pin towards the TE?

2 wing joiners; 1 retainer (bands); I'm guessing here . .

Cheers
Phillip C

Fred China · Sep 13, 2009, 10:27 PM

SZD16 and Steve

Thanks fellows, I thought I was doing that but will try again next time I post.

Phillip

LE to TE
1-Aileron connection
2-1/2" carbon wing rod
3-Was for spring wing retainer but now reduntant because of spoiler servo in the way.
4- Wing retainer
5- 3/8" carbon wing rod

Fred

Sep 13, 2009, 04:58 PM	#41
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Sheeting of fuselage all done. Now I can move on to other things. I know it may seem ridiculous but that little square wood block is indispensable to me when covering with plywood. It allows me to put pressure on a panel anywhere to make sure it is stuck to the framework with the contact cement. It is square on four sides and I also use it when building wings. Ribs at 90 degrees etc. I'm putting the words first this time because I know I won't get them under the photos. Fred Attached Thumbnails 31.4 KB · Views: 134 29.3 KB · Views: 102 19.2 KB · Views: 98 29.6 KB · Views: 138

Sep 13, 2009, 08:00 PM	#42
SZD16 Vintage wood is the best! Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mechanicsville, Virginia, United States Posts: 1,461	Fred, Here is where you put the words in to show up under the pictures. Attached Thumbnails 145.8 KB · Views: 105

Sep 10, 2009, 09:44 PM	#31
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Phillip Your third paragraph says it all. If you go back to the third set of photos and check out no. 2 "Covering of wing root will be tricky" you can see the framework. The plywood I buy is 12"x48" and there are almost two complete sheets aft of the balance point. They weigh about 10oz. each so that is a minimum of 18 oz. which means I am going to need about another pound of ballast up front and I have almost 2 pounds there now Fred

Sep 11, 2009, 01:39 AM	#33
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Phillip Ply is not over balsa. The only balsa fill in is between the forward two formers at the nose. For the rest of the fuselage there is nothing behind the plywood except air. Anyway, I tend to build heavy. Fred

Sep 11, 2009, 09:21 AM	#35
mmartin55 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,077	Fred, Sorry if I missed it earlier in this discussion but where do you find your plywood for covering and what type is it. I would like to find a source for .5, 1, 2, 3mm mahagany such as might have been used on a 1937 ship like the Ross Stephens RS-1. If not available, do you have any tips for staining aircraft ply in those thicknesses as well as a source for the thin plywood? Great work on your Slingsby! Tom

Sep 11, 2009, 02:16 PM	#36
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Phillip I hate painting so the majority of my gliders are finished by staining and varnishing with water base Varathane gloss diamond wood finish. This of course would show a complete change from birch ply to balsa. Also without some kind of covering such as glass cloth, I don't think balsa strong enough. Plywood is actually quite easy to apply, is strong and looks good and it's the way the originals were built. Fred

Sep 11, 2009, 02:39 PM	#37
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Tom I have no SPECIAL source for plywood. The plywood I use is birch ply which I pay through the nose for at the local hobby shop until the price went a third more than a mail order hobby shop in Alberta. It costs me about $200.00 for plywood per glider and it's almost the most expensive item for each glider. The largest size I can get is 12"x 48" The stain I use is an Aniline Wood Stain water soluable powder which I purchase from Lee Valley Tools Ltd. It is mixed with warm water and can be varied in shade by how much powder and water you use. The colour I use is called "Golden Antique Pine" and it's very easy to use. I don't know whether you have Lee Valley in the US but you should have. They are a marvelous woodworkers shop. Fred

Sep 11, 2009, 02:46 PM	#38
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Tom Just another word. The stain package has a sticker on it saying MADE IN USA so I assume you can buy it there. Fred

Sep 12, 2009, 12:25 AM	#39
mmartin55 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 2,077	Thanks Fred, I've used aniline dyes in water for expensive custom white oak and pine floors and for antique reproduction furniture. Its wonderful stuff if you don't mind dying your hands and having stain running down your to your elbows! We finished with three coats of shellac hand sanded and then water based polyurethane followed by hand rubbed wax. Two more questions: 1. Does this color approximate the look of vintage craft? (I assume they used a marine grade of mahogany plywood) and 2. Are you finding non-aircraft spruce in .5, 1 and 1.5mm thicknesses? Thanks for your help, Tom

Sep 12, 2009, 12:54 AM	#40
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	Tom I think it does. You might have seen photos of my Cimbora. That colour is almost a perfect match with the full size. It's not a mahogany colour however, but I imagine you can get that in an aniline stain. We grow the stuff here but it is almost an unknown item. A number of years ago we had a homebuild aircraft shop that stocked it and you could pick it over for what you wanted. They moved and I don't know where they are now. I was able to get a lousy piece of aircraft spruce a few years ago from out of town which I have used up. I now go to the local lumber yard and try to find a close, clear grained 2x4 or 2x6 of fir or what they call spruce. I have been lucky with fir in both sizes and find it perfectly adequate for what I need. I rip it on my table saw for spars and longerons but not the small sizes you are asking about. Fred

Sep 13, 2009, 08:02 PM	#43
SPasierb Build-fly-crash-repeat... Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Norwalk, CT aka the Nutmeg State -- I just can't seem to find any %$#@! nutmeg here? Posts: 1,125	And after you add the words, be sure you scroll to the bottom of the page and click "save changes" BEFORE you click "close this window." Thanks so much for this FANTASTIC thread. The fuselage is a work of art! Steve

Sep 13, 2009, 09:40 PM	#44
philkiteflyer KISS_KeepItSimpleStupid Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Invercargill, New Zealand Posts: 210	"Nice fuse" veeerryyy sexy. Can you tell us what all the holes (5) are in the wing root? Are you going to put a locator pin towards the TE? 2 wing joiners; 1 retainer (bands); I'm guessing here . . Cheers Phillip C

Sep 13, 2009, 10:27 PM	#45
Fred China Registered User Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 70	SZD16 and Steve Thanks fellows, I thought I was doing that but will try again next time I post. Phillip LE to TE 1-Aileron connection 2-1/2" carbon wing rod 3-Was for spring wing retainer but now reduntant because of spoiler servo in the way. 4- Wing retainer 5- 3/8" carbon wing rod Fred