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Old Apr 18, 2003, 12:07 PM
Registered User
Lubbock Texas
Joined Nov 2002
459 Posts
Well Martin
The the last 50 yrs of history. One example that pops to mind, is when we bombed libya in the 80s. The french where at war with libya in chad at the time. The french wouldn't let our planes fly over through there air space to bomb the countery they where at war with. That dosn't sound like the actions of a "freindly" goverment to me. We ended up loseing 2 f111s in the sea on the way back to the uk.
And I said America not Americans!!! You said earlyer that the brits like to pull at the leg of the french as much as they do to you. Maybe its the same kind of thing with us and the french.
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Old Apr 18, 2003, 01:39 PM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,545 Posts
I vaguely remember the bombing raid, but not in enough detail to comment. Weren't there several other incidents around the same time involving US and Libyan aircraft.
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Old Apr 18, 2003, 02:02 PM
Registered User
Lubbock Texas
Joined Nov 2002
459 Posts
That one was when the libyan's bombed a night club in berlin full of us and british millatary pepole. The other I think you are remembering where when The libyans made the so called line of death across international waters in the med. So the us sent a battle group on maneuvers in the aerea, and twice the libyans sent fighters that fired at our jets. So we shoot them down. But that happened a yr or 2 after the F111s.
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Old Apr 18, 2003, 03:16 PM
Too Little Too Late
MICHIGAN... 48189
Joined Jan 2002
323 Posts
Strange

This reminds me of the late 30s when most politicians & countries remained silent; like little kids in school trying to hide from the teacher lest they be noticed. They learned that they could keep quiet, but they could not hide.

Jerry
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Old Apr 18, 2003, 05:40 PM
Official Old Git!
Hampshire, UK
Joined Sep 2000
1,385 Posts
I think the Fench (maybe quite rightly?) feel very protective of their history etc (very similar to the Welsh & Scots in the UK), and seem to be doing their best to try stave of the day when they have lost their prime position in the world.

Hence their defence of the French language (maybe that's why they keep trying to get us / anyone else to speak French, much to our annoyance!).

It sort of looks to me that this is why they reacted the way they did over Iraq. The bit I found most upsetting wasn't their stand against the war - but that they proceeded to denigrate the new member countries that have joined the UN, again particularly if they disagreed with the French opinion.

Having a brain that's going senile I can't remember off-hand who said 'I may not agree with your opinion, but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to have it' (or something like that! ) but I heartily agree with the sentiment.

I also choose my opinion, and choose to change it if I want - but even if it's painful to me, you have as much right to express your opinion - and I should have the courtesy to listen to it. I may then choose to change my opinion, but I don't believe that there is something wrong with you just because we disagree!

(Here is where I have to come clean, and admit that I make sweeping decision on people's characters, if they don't think the way I do - but I do try to minimise it - and I do find it hard to do!)

ClipperBill - you seem far more qualified than me to comment on the facts!

I agree with some of what you say. I also think that we are also talking about free speech, (maybe coupled with free listening? ) because each of us attempts to justify our actions, and the merits of the justification need to be examined. If you stop listening with some degree of objectivity the you can't examine the merits etc.

Especially as everyone (governments e.g. UK, US, China, France, Germany etc) have, at some time or another, broken international laws, murdered, harboured criminals, etc And yet think that because we have done such things, then everything is acceptable.

Bigsappy - Nope, free speech, and free opinions are just as valuable to be given from you guys in the US as anyone else! You have as much to contribute to the world as anyone else!

(More of my 5 pennorth!)

Cheers,

(Crumbs, I've just read what I've written - apologies for the ramble! )
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Old Apr 18, 2003, 10:10 PM
Baboon McGoon
ClipperBill's Avatar
Saint Paul, Minnesota, United States
Joined Jun 2002
678 Posts
Thanks for the kudos, Norman. I agree with you that the US has no business supporting petty dictatorships around the world for the sake of political expediency as we have in the Middle East and elsewhere which have ultimately and lastingly hurt our credibility abroad. If the US government stuck resolutely by our founding principles when challenged and had more respect for other cultures different from our own, we wouldn't be so often characterized as ugly Americans. Often our political leaders too are spineless, or even worse, greedy and selfish. However, as an American and a Viet Nam era veteran, I am proud beyond measure about our military defending humanitarian causes in Somalia, Bosnia, and Iraq when the UN and the rest of the international community refused to act; even when it caused fine US service men and women to make the ultimate sacrifice to make a better world in the midst of evil. I am also very proud of the genuine restraint that the USA as a nation exercised when attacked on 9/11/01 when we could have quite easiliy and justifiably taken a sledgehammer to Arab states like Syria (and even Saudi Arabia)who sponsor international terrorism. Equally proud am I to be decended from an English grandmother who made me love your country probably as much as mine and for the splendid ally that Britain has always been (I am especially grateful to your PM Tony Blair) to the United States.
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Old Apr 19, 2003, 10:46 AM
Too Little Too Late
MICHIGAN... 48189
Joined Jan 2002
323 Posts
ClipperBill

England deserves the credit you have given them, too bad we can't say the same for Canada. Because of our protection, Canada feels they no longer need a viable defense system. Yet they resent our response to help people in in a cruel & inhuman dictatorship. Wonder how they would feel if Cuba attacked them. I doubt they could put up much of a defense. Do you think they would ask for help??????
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Old Apr 19, 2003, 12:23 PM
Useful Idiot
Asturias, Spain
Joined Mar 2001
3,545 Posts
al-Douri

According to a BBC report, he is staying at a Damascus hotel.
httphttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2958643.stm://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/2958643.stm
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