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Old Aug 09, 2009, 09:20 AM
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Australia...we live inverted.
Joined May 2008
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Discussion
Setting up Spektrum 4G3 on 1S with HH gyro

Edit:
Changed the thread title from the specific discussion of HH tails to setting up a 4G3 with Spektrum gear and a HH gyro as there does not seem to ba a dedicated thread.

My current 4G3 (work in progress)
Ar6300 decased Approx 2g
Esky 704A gyro lightened and pin connectors removed 1.7g
Hobby city booster lightened to 3.1g (no wires) Edit 30/10/09 Now using a lightened Dimension Engineering LVboost 0.7g without wires http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996028
Pics of new booster:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=175
Xp7A main esc
Tgy 3a tail esc (Edit 14/10/09 now running modded and flashed Fiegao esc...basically a PPM Flea (Commercally avail PPM Flea is from Nanoheli)
HPO8 18T
AEO 2.6g

Current AUW with cf simulating blades, Gaui double bearing mixers, strengthened plastic head and 400mah 20C: 79.1g Edit 30/10/09 AUW with LVBoost 76.8g


Here is original 1st post:
Hi Guys,
Setting up a Spektrum 4g3 with a dd bl tail and an Esky704A gyro. I have a few esc's to try and so far have flown with the Tgy3a (1g esc) anyway questions....

If you have experience doing this sort of thing can you please describe how the heli will react if the tail esc is too slow?

And is there any rate mode type setup to get no yaw prior to switching to HH as would normally be done on a belt tail??

Currently the heli flys but clockwise piros are very jerky or notchy. And I had to use rudder trim to get no yaw which goes against how a HH gyro should be set up.

************************************************** *************************************

Edit; Will add info from here down re specifics regarding the Rx and Tx settings as well as componants used.

DX7 Settings:
Model memory:
Heli
Input select:
Aux 2>Aux 2
Gear>Gear (this will allow you to use the gear channel endpoints to set switch selectable gain settings. Gear pos 0 is usually set for HH ie + value)
3 servos 120*
Other setting options INH

Settings:
Right side servo (when viewed from the rear of the heli) is the pitch servo and plugs into the Aux port. Aile>Aile, Elev>Elev.
Ch1 down, 2 down, 3 up, 4 up, 5 down, 6 up, 7 down
Swash mix:
AILE + value (approx 60)
ELEV + value (same as above)
PIT - value (same numerical)

Throttle curves as desired something like
Norm: Linear
ST-1: 100,85,70,85,100
ST-2: 100,95,90,95,100

Pitch curves (aim for +-10*) Microkites pics of how to use blades full length to see pitch. (Gaui manual method)
Something like:
Norm: 50 (for 0* pitch at bottom stick for blades to fold back nicely),35,50,65,80
ST-1: 20,35,50,65,80
ST-2: 20,35,50,65,80
HOLD: 50,35,50,65,80. (best to have exactly the same first value as your idle ups so you have full neg if you need it but then the pitch changes dramatically when you switch out of thr hold when you first set the heli up for a fly)

For a HH gyro there is no trim used. The tail will sometimes start at bottom centre stick as it is getting "half" signal from the channel. Easy way to get rid of this is to flick your thr hold on and trim full left. The trim positions on the Spektrum tx are saved for each flight mode. As soon as you flip the switch for a flight the trim returns to centre and the tail starts and runs "half throttle".

Edit 14/11/09 Better mix to stop the tail entirely by giving it full left signal when throttle hold is on here (thanks Beer-Man):http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=23 Follow that post (rather than the link within the post) and allocate it to mix 2 (mix 1 has no hold switch option). Tail now gets 125% endpoint left signal when thr hld is enabled.


Spektrum AR6300:
Running a booster (5V) as the rx will brown out at approx 3.8V. TheSteve modifies these for 1s if you would prefer the weight saving. I went with a booster as the servos will be faster and this allows more options for a gyro.
Added pic of the pinouts for the AR6300. (courtesy Jasonjetski)
NB: The wiring order in the plugs is different to Walkera's servo order. The Wk plugs will fit into the AR6300 ports with a little pressure. The actual plug for the AR6300 is a micro jst but these Walkera servo plugs or the tri red/yellow/black ones from Walkera distributors were easier for me to get.

More to come as I get further into the build.

Edit: 14/10/09 Added updated pics and configuration.

Edit: 30/10/09 Added revised AUW after fitting different booster.

Edit: 14/11/09 Added better mixing technique to stop the tail.

Amp
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampdraw
Hi Guys,
Setting up a Spektrum 4g3 with a dd bl tail and an Esky704A gyro. I have a few esc's to try and so far have flown with the Tgy3a (1g esc) anyway questions....

If you have experience doing this sort of thing can you please describe how the heli will react if the tail esc is too slow?

And is there any rate mode type setup to get no yaw prior to switching to HH as would normally be done on a belt tail??

Currently the heli flys but clockwise piros are very jerky or notchy. And I had to use rudder trim to get no yaw which goes against how a HH gyro should be set up.

Amp
I have a heli that has a brushless tail motor but on a CP2 and not on a 4G3.

Heading hold gyros are tricky as they tend to shift thus ESC may arm prematurely even without the throttle. Also, at some point you will not be able to achieve the ESC's full throttle curve due to this shift thus you will have to play around with the rudder trim to cancel out that gyro's inherent shift.

I was able to solve this problem using a V-tail mixer. Otherwise you will have to stay in rate mode with the rudder at full right to arm the ESC.

Honeybee CP2 w/ Brushless Direct Drive Variable Pitched tail (2 min 25 sec)


There is a long thread about this when i tried a brushless tail on a CP2;

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=855814
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 04:46 PM
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620 Posts
I have a Telebee HH gyro that works great with brushless tail motor. There are a couple of things you may want to know. I speak of my experience. With HH gyro, the power to tail motor is not controlled by the main throttle. Depending on your setup (ESC, motor power, tail rotor size etc), the gyro may be locked at a point where the tail rotor would spin also when the heli sits on the ground. Because throttle has no direct effect on the tail motor, in a crash the tail motor may keep running even if you have cut the throttle. With motored tail rotor and HH gyro you have to learn to hold left rudder when the heli is down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampdraw
Hi Guys,
Setting up a Spektrum 4g3 with a dd bl tail and an Esky704A gyro. I have a few esc's to try and so far have flown with the Tgy3a (1g esc) anyway questions....

If you have experience doing this sort of thing can you please describe how the heli will react if the tail esc is too slow?

And is there any rate mode type setup to get no yaw prior to switching to HH as would normally be done on a belt tail??

Currently the heli flys but clockwise piros are very jerky or notchy. And I had to use rudder trim to get no yaw which goes against how a HH gyro should be set up.

Amp
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 04:50 PM
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Joined Jul 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glxy
I have a Telebee HH gyro that works great with brushless tail motor. There are a couple of things you may want to know. I speak of my experience. With HH gyro, the power to tail motor is not controlled by the main throttle. Depending on your setup (ESC, motor power, tail rotor size etc), the gyro may be locked at a point where the tail rotor would spin also when the heli sits on the ground. Because throttle has no direct effect on the tail motor, in a crash the tail motor may keep running even if you have cut the throttle. With motored tail rotor and HH gyro you have to learn to hold left rudder when the heli is down.
or better program throttle to rudder mixing on the radio.
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 07:13 PM
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Joined May 2008
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Thanks guys,

I understand how the tail esc gets it power etc. I have set up thr to rudder mixing to get the tail stopped in norm mode at 0 throttle. I am yet to set up mixing for the throttle hold switch....haven't looked but advise about how to do this would be nice.

Thinking further I would presume rudder subtrim is used to dial out drift in rate mode prior to switching to HH...correct?

Main thing I would love to know is what symptoms the heli will show if the tail esc is too slow. I know on 300 size cp's many use the Castle Pheonix 10 for exactly this reason but what does the heli do if the esc is too slow??

Oh btw the 6300rx will brownout at approx 3.8v. Tried running the heli without booster and the flights I have done so far have been on 1s.

Amp
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 08:36 PM
szo
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Australia, NSW, Cronulla
Joined Jun 2005
150 Posts
Great timing Amp,

I've set aside today to get my 4G3 back in the air with a Spectrum and HH set up, and had mostly the same question floating around my head.

I'm going with an AEO esc and a stripped skyartec/align/telebee gyro that I had lying around, its a bit heavy but I've got it down to 7 grams.

If I can't get it working well then maybe I'll have to put some more work into plan B
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 10:33 AM
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Another thing I want to say is that your HH gyro may like better a warm motor especially if it is an outrunner. Mine does, and I found a cold start ofen results in tail wag, either the first half minute or for the entire flight.

Tail stop at 0 throttle should work fine, but it might be necessary to spin the tail rotor a few seconds before lifting off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampdraw
Thanks guys,

I understand how the tail esc gets it power etc. I have set up thr to rudder mixing to get the tail stopped in norm mode at 0 throttle. I am yet to set up mixing for the throttle hold switch....haven't looked but advise about how to do this would be nice.
...
Amp
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 09:02 PM
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Also changing the Title of this thread to Setting up Spektrum 4G3 on 1S

Thanks,

I am now using throttle>Rudder mix -30. This allows the tail to be maybe 10 points past stopped at 0 thr norm mode.

Also no mixing is required to get the tail stopped with throttle hole engaged as my thr hold is set to -10 for the thr channel. Wonder if this effectively makes the tail mix -40? Anyway even with heavy hand induced yaw with the throttle hold engaged the tail stays off. I didn't want the motor and esc right at the point of starting (high pitch noise) if I were to crash as this would kill the esc pretty fast.

The heli will hold in gentle punchout (80% gain on a 150 scale Dx7) but will kick clockwise at the top ie when the pos pitch is suddenly stopped. The tail is also notchy or segmented when trying to do piros in both directions unless they are really slow.
Currently using Tgy 3A esc. I have just done this mod http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=996645 to a Fiegao 6A esc and will try it on the tail. They are supposed to be fast enough. It was the most difficult soldering I have done! Especially considering the size of the 3K resistor which was the smallest the local elec store carry.

Amp
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Last edited by Ampdraw; Aug 10, 2009 at 09:28 PM.
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 09:45 PM
QiW
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south east asia
Joined Mar 2009
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great work amp ..
awaiting your final results
was the 3A TGY ESC not sufficient for the tail ??
thats alot of wires under the canopy .. i now fly mine (still running 2605A) mostly without canopy coz cramping those wires under the canopy induces vibration to the electronics which in turn causes u know what
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 10:26 PM
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I remember trying this on a 4#3b... Been a while so i don't remember the details. I used a dp3a for the bl tail and it wasn't quite fast enough. I was able to fly it but the tail just was not smooth. I think notchy would be a good description of how it acted. I ended up going with a brushed esc/motor on the tail.

Nice job soldering the feigao esc, I didn't even dare try. That's why I just stuck with brushed tail on the 1s separates at the time.

Isn't there a ppm version of the flea available now?
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 12:55 AM
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Good idea for a thread. It will be useful when I find a working gyro.
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 06:30 AM
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Ok so I fitted the Fiegao 1s esc. It arms and runs fine....ish! Direct swap from the Tgy
Stick programmed it for
Brake off
Battery Lixx
Cutoff shutdown
Startup Normal (other choices are soft and super soft)
Timing high

First thing I had to do was change the battery type to nimh as it would shut off if you applied full right rudder for a few seconds??
Maybe my 1s mod didn't work as desired.

Next issue...the hh gain is not working as it should. At +100 points of gain on a 150 scale the tail is less reactive than at 30 points but at 0 there is no reaction as it should.

With +50 points of gain you moved the tail away from centre the rpm would increase. If you then stopped the tail in this position the tail rpm would subside to about half wheras the rpm should remain a constant until the tail is moved back to its original position.

Thought maybe there was a gain wire issue so I disconnected the gain wire that goes to the gyro gear channel and the esc gives specific error tones which means the esc can't recognise a throttle signal???? Throttle signal should still be coming from the Gyro.....

Further anaylisis if you provide some right rudder and hold the stick midway the tail motor actually accellerates gradually until it hits where it wants to be. Maybe "normal start" is actually not a hard start as I would like.

All a bit crazy as the heli with the Tgy was ok and hh gain etc worked as it should. Thinking the esc "mod" has done something strange.

Going to try a Walkera main esc next. Wonder if the Wk main and tail esc's are infact exactly the same? Soon know if it will work.

Also got a AEO5A esc to try. Failing those maybe a Walkera tail esc and then if still no success the ever faithful PPM flea!

Amp
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 06:44 AM
szo
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I'm having no joy with AEO esc, very jerky. Haven't had any time to trouble shoot except for trying different gains, I could feel the gain changing but it had no effect on the jerking. It is the same in HH and rate.

It kind of feels like the esc is always trying to catch up with the gyro?? Will be interested to see how yours goes, maybe I screwed something up...

Does anyone know if the difference between the Flea escs is just software or is it in the hardware. Maybe we can find some one to try to flash it

Brad
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Old Aug 12, 2009, 08:03 PM
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Thanks for the comments on the AEO 5a.

Last night I tried the Wk main esc....man that thing is slow! Give rudder imput and the esc takes maybe 0.5sec until the tail bl reacts.

Went back to the Tgy just to check my setup after the Fiegao and the Wk. All working as it should.

Found with the DX7 you can actually assign the thr to rudder mix to be either on or off according to the flight mode position...cool! (FL NR, FL1, FL12)

Played around with the Tgy3a and it is infact programmable! Program guide: http://www.xqcontrol.com/UploadFile/...5104428705.pdf

Tried all sorts of programming but cannot get rid of the notchy piros. Getting +95 gain (150 scale) without wag but the tail kicks 60* on punches and the heli is set up with less pitch than what I was running with the Wk rx and pwm flea. So maybe the little esc cannot supply the required amps for the 2.6.

I also tried revo mix even though the HH gyro should not need it (my understanding).
With revo mix I can get the tail to hold ok. Very small initial kick 10* on collective input but the issue is at the top of the punchout. Tail goes 100* or more to the left (nose right). Pretty sure this is due to the esc being too slow and for that split second the tail is still getting signal to counter the torque. More revo mix...straighter tail in punch but more pronounced situation at the top....had it piro to nose in!

So FLEA it is....unless someone has any suggestions as to why the Fiegao reacts as described??




Anyone have a V3 flea (pretty sure these are programmable PPM or PWM) they would consider trading for a PWM flea with suitable money exchange as well??


Or maybe 4#3B/Q parts...far in excess of the fleas value....have a lunch box full! Can work out what you would like etc.

Thanks
Amp
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Old Aug 13, 2009, 01:16 AM
RC Helis: My Healthy Obsession
The OC, California
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ampdraw

Anyone have a V3 flea (pretty sure these are programmable PPM or PWM) they would consider trading for a PWM flea with suitable money exchange as well??


Thanks
Amp
Hey Amp. PM me about the V3 Flea. I still have a couple of them sitting in a bag on my bench. Won't be needing them with my newly designed/built SD/VP tail. LOL.
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