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Old Sep 21, 2012, 08:49 PM
Veni, Vidi, Feci
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Another hazard exposed!

So, this door is about 3/4" high, and is printed in Shapeway's Frosted Ultra Detail material- their highest resolution material.
You don't get any say in how the parts are arranged in the printer- any side can be up. In this case, the long edge of the door was up- the door's face was vertical.

See the white stripes across the door's face? These are "shadows". The port hole rim and three small round circles (bases for handles) stand proud of the door's face.

When turned sideways, the laser beam brushes the face of the door when "burning" the material that sticks out, leaving a disturbed surface below the bits in bas-relief. So not only is the door surface rough from the basic process, more roughness is added by this effect. Now I have to sand off all the detail if I even use these parts.

If the tech has done the obvious thing and set the model flat, it would have come out much nicer. Of course, for a complicated shape (like an anchor winch), no way around is going to be best...
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 01:37 PM
Veni, Vidi, Feci
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Another challenge- parts, especially fragile ones, tend to warp. This is a better process for fairly chunky items.

You can sometimes straighten a part with warm water... this ladder was just too much grief, so I'm using a molded HO scale ladder instead. These ladders are about 1/4" wide.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 04:38 PM
Submarines, etc.
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i have been following a similar amazing construction thread on another website, and the object these two guys are building is astonishing.

they have also come across many of the same limitations in shapeway's methods, but have found a few answers as well:

http://www.therpf.com/f11/1-700-1-35...cygnus-145563/

i especially like how they have added sacrificial "sprues" to strengthen parts like your ladder to keep them from bending/warping.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 04:44 PM
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Didn't show it before, but I had a frame/sprue for the ladder... no help this time!

.
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 09:30 AM
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Found this one WIRED this morning. Sounds like it may solve a lot of the problems with fine detail (though it is not for sale yet other than kickstarter) but it does show there are new things coming out. http://www.wired.com/design/2012/09/...d-3-d-printer/
Foo
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 04:02 PM
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Fooman: that really looks like it could become something
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 10:04 PM
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Nope... it only hopes to MATCH the expensive commercial machines... which simply aren't good enough for small/fine model details.

Today's cheap machines that they hope to supplant? These create something more like a wicker chair, ick.
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 10:06 AM
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Hit two site every morning, RCG and WIRED (just to see what some of my favorite subjects of interest are doing) and this was again in WIRED, http://www.wired.com/design/2012/09/...our-own-parts/ Now how would it be if you bought a kit and they sent you all the files to have the small parts printed where you live (would cut down on the cost/damage of shipping for sure), and you could determine if you wanted to use the parts (some people seem to want to use the boats more than super-detail them). and save that money also.
Foo
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Old Sep 30, 2012, 08:29 PM
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The technology will get better, it always does. It will be come cheaper too. The question is if you can use this to fab up the parts you need there will come a day when you will not have to actually make anything. Kind of like using a replicator. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 11:09 AM
oldtribefan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravman View Post
The technology will get better, it always does. It will be come cheaper too. The question is if you can use this to fab up the parts you need there will come a day when you will not have to actually make anything. Kind of like using a replicator. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.
It will be a sad day when you will not have to actually make anything: there is already a bit too much "I bought this" vs "I made this".
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Old Oct 01, 2012, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldtribefan View Post
It will be a sad day when you will not have to actually make anything: there is already a bit too much "I bought this" vs "I made this".

Yes, but the made this will be from the program that I ran --so I technically made this using the "modern tools". I admitt that it just won't be the same as drawing, cutting, glueing, sanding, sealing the parts made compared to a machine made part.
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 09:37 PM
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I have a new replicator II from makerbot on my wish list I have thinking about trying to print a springer hull (have to be in a couple of parts because it is still to big for it), just to see if I could make something like that.
Foo
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Old Oct 02, 2012, 09:53 PM
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3D printing is never going to replace injection moulding for large-run mass produced items, just like they don't now make pulleys and gears out of solid circular blanks chucked into a six-million-dollar multiaxis mill.

There will come a time when you can print a single part that's as good as a competent resin-moulded one but you are never going to replace plastic sprues with a single datafile and a tub of powder.
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Old Oct 03, 2012, 12:10 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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@ZZ56

ya know what ZZ, you remind me of the guys who, back around '75/'76. sat around the the Tressidder Student Union coffeeouse on the Stanford campus and expounded how computers would always be the domain of "big iron" and in the hands of the computing priesthood who all had lifetime secure positions while we played "Galaxy Game" on two handcrafted consoles hacked together by a two guys from Stanford who, while working elsewhere, founded the first computer game company, Computer Recreations, that paid the bills a quarter at a time for three games. Nolan Bushnell copied them and went down in flames before later founding Atari. The Homebrew Club occasionally met in a meeting space just a few steps away where some guy named Steve was fussing with breadboards and showing off his new toys every week or so.

Pretty soon there were companies like Altair, Imsai, North Star, Cromemco, Commodore, Apple, Personal Software (later VisiCorp) and hobbyists were integratin' systems on the S-100 bus[listen below] (spec 696) and later, Apple ][s, while readin' Dr.Dobbs and hanging out at the Peoples' Computer Center started with seed money from, Stewart Brand, the same guy who started the Whole Earth Catalog and stores while the big iron guys were still poo-pooin' "the toys" even as Apple ][s running Visacalc (the original killer app) were taking over accounting departments and creeping out the doors to secretary's desks with the Z80-card tucked inside so they could run Wordstar.

Funny thing, ten years later - a LOT of the 'Big Iron' folks were scrambling for the leavings of the 'computer' revolution which they totally missed out on and really could have dominated if they had only had the vision to see what was right under their noses! Tandy and IBM maybe came closest, but the TRS-80 was a piece of crap, and IBM was convinced the the hardware is what paid the bills and let Billy keep the rights to the operating system (QDOS - Quick and Dirty Operating System) for the 8600 that he'd bought for chicken feed from the hackers in Seattle (which looked very suspiciously like CP/M for the Z80 series anyway).

Ok, so today resolution in the sub-$3000 dollar additive replicator market is .001 inch (Makerbot II) and .00025 inch for FormLabs. I suspect that the tipping point, the "Macintosh moment," for desktop home 3D printing is less than a year or so off, two at most, but I'd bet sooner rather than later.

The high end machines in industry can already produce smooth, near mirror finish items like hearing aids. Just like printing - I can print better quality materials than almost anything but a solid-lead press at home with a laserprinter, just a lot slower in volume. Same thing is gonna' happen here - we'll have very high resolution additive printers affordable at the small professional and 'club' (TechShop) level soon, they'll just be slower with less volume capacity than the bigger, industrial units, maybe somewhat limited in material choice.

I know, I've seen a couple of the machines in the sub 100k area - the same specs will be sub 20k in a couple of years and desktop in a few more if innovation continues at it's current pace.

Additive tech WILL be part of the future of modeling simply because, it will do what injection molding does but without the costs and tooling in lots of onesie, twosie and tensie, perfect for small artisanal modeling operations like maybe Merriman's, Gill's or Upshaw's and others. I think it will probably save the hobby.

Why do I call it a Macintosh Moment? The Mac had true "what you see is what you get," WYSIWYG interface; exactly what you saw got printed on paper. Just as Desktop Publishing (DP) and later with color monitors, graphics manipulation (Photoshop), were the Mac's Killer Apps, the Mac, DP/imaging software and Laserprinter combo killed the old printing industry! I know. I was working for a vendor supporting the imaging side of the pre-press industry a few years later when the chickens came home to roost and it was bye-bye to that whole business sector, jobs, companies, machines and all in a few months time, literally weeks after we hit the tipping point. Only the Hood may have gone under faster.

You point to quality - well, I'll give you a counter examples: consumer quality levels in music, still and motion pictures and also point out the the quality of early injection molded plastic was pretty crappy too. I mean we're still cleaning 'flash' off our part trees even today and honestly, I'd say the quality of some current model releases rivals that of the 50's and early 60's.

With EVERY 'innovation' quality dropped!

Motion Pictures: 70mm, triple negative systems > 70mm color neg > 35mm neg > 16mm neg >16mm reversal > 'double 8' reversal> 8mm > super 8 > two inch tape NTSC > BetaMax > VHS

Sound: 33-1/3 vinyl > cassettes > CD > MP3 (yeech!)

Photo: 8x10 sheet > 4x5 sheet > 120 roll> 35mm roll > 24mm roll > Digital tiffs > jpegs etc.

In other words, unfortunately for craftsmen and consumers, good enough is "good enough" in most cases involving mass production. Industry has has a hundred 80 years experience with diminishing people's expectations. Fortunately, digital systems in the hands of small artisanal craftsmen and women may reverse the trend in many cases over time.

One other item I think you fail to understand, model boating is no longer a market that can support a lot of mass marketing and product production in the old way - we, as a market, are shrinking so anything that will help establish and support the high skill, small run manufacturers like Umi_Ryuzuki, Pat, Upshaw and Merriman should be examined and welcomed.

Frank Hayes Don't Ask 04 - S-100 (2 min 33 sec)
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Old Oct 05, 2012, 08:29 PM
Veni, Vidi, Feci
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Whew... what he said.

OK, my printed parts are coming along, though not without some battles.
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